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Old 14th January 2013, 05:06 AM   #51
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Default what do the transformers in esl's do?

can someone please explain to me me what these torroids do? do these convert 6 volt to 2700 volts? or how many volt do you need to go to the stators? Also how many volts do you need to go to the diaphram? is the thing that plugs into the wall just a transformer also? and if so what is its input and output..

Thanks for you time...
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Old 14th January 2013, 12:21 PM   #52
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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The Odyssey crossover is basically a tweak of the SL3 crossover arrangement shown in Figure (B) from post#46.
A lot of added complexity for what may be a small audible improvement.

Well as with any ESLs....even small changes can make a diff.......the Zobel set up on the input res..... it a 1ohm 20watt....cap can be from 5mfs to 10mf.....5mf was the winner in my case.......this is best place to start for anyone with these type res input setups...
That one cap can set the sound of the ESLs output...i have put all new caps in ever place in these crossovers.....but i went back to all stock caps an changed that one cap an got the topend i was looking for.....go figg.
thanks
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Old 15th January 2013, 05:22 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyu View Post
Well as with any ESLs....even small changes can make a diff.......the Zobel set up on the input res..... it a 1ohm 20watt....cap can be from 5mfs to 10mf.....5mf was the winner in my case
Agreed, sometimes small changes can make all the difference.
In my experience though, small changes in the 200Hz - 500Hz range aren't nearly as critical as at 1kHz - 4kHz. That was what I was trying to get at.

The 1ohm-10uF network your mentioned(red box on schematic) is a shelving network for the top octave.
Attachment #2 shows response trends for CX1 values of 10uF, 5uF, 2uF.

Another network you might consider adjusting to your preference is the midrange contouring network CX3-LX1-(RX7-RX10). You can modify the depth of the adjustment by changing the 3ohm resistance(green box on schematic). Attachment #3 shows response trends for resistance values of 2ohm, 3ohm, 5ohm. I think you will find this adjustment quite critical in balancing the range (smooth-detailed-harsh) of the midrange sound. The apparent depth of image is usually also affected.
Attached Images
File Type: gif ML_odys_adjust.gif (151.1 KB, 231 views)
File Type: gif ML_odys_HFadjust.gif (28.4 KB, 216 views)
File Type: gif ML_odys_MIDadjust.gif (27.7 KB, 207 views)
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Old 15th January 2013, 06:29 PM   #54
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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How Cool is what you know about all ESL,???.........
thanks bolserst...
I have pulled the Crossover out on the ceter tap of the ML....Prodigy
i dont have a schematic for the Prodigy.....or i would post it so you could give input...
Mr Powers sent it to me right before he left...but my pc died with it..

But it sounds better i think?? ....The Biger panel 16X48... has more output for sure with the coil in the ct....but you know how it is it well take time to go back an forth....the pro..setup on the ct its vary close to the re-qust i posted...same size panels..
I put in the 2.5 mh.18ga...What happens if i put in a 12ga coil in???..No res... on the Prodigy ct...the res.....adds a sound i dont like?? should i add the Zobel type setup to that spot...
.just the coil sounds good if you get things setup right....I pulled the coil up... it was swed down flat...i have it standing now it sounds much better...
One thing is for sure.... all the caps an res. an coils in Any Crossover ...Care need to be taken on were an how there monted...just gluing all these parts down can Kill about 1/2 your sound if not more...like for the bass driver i have put some pading under the coil an got low & better bass...an i find that the caps have better top end an give More output if the pull up in the air.
..an not glued down at all...
Anyone can try this an see what i mean..if not right in there setup can allways go back..
....
Hell ML with a pr of Ascents has even put the cap in one speaker in one drecshion an in the other..the other way...it took me some time find this...an to get that pr of speaker to sound right....
Gees so ck you ML an all speakers for this...what ever way you go..keep the caps the same in the pr....
Had a guy thats trying sale Me aNother pr of Prodigy come over...I set my pr up with Re-worket panels an blue his mind...he cant even play his now...he think there at lest 5-6db more output out of my panels.......there a lot life in the older logans thats being tossed right the trash-can.... But that life.... thanks
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Old 27th April 2013, 10:18 AM   #55
TheMooN is offline TheMooN  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ticknpop View Post
The CLX LF EI core has no taps. Later this spring a friends CLX will get upgraded next and we'll take pictures of each board, the magnetics, and trace the crossover schematic for the curious out there.
Gooday ticknpop , I am wondering whether you made any headway on that particular project ?

For may part , I would be most interested in any further information that you may have at your disposal , as the ML factory warranty clock is rapidly running down on my CLX's , leaving me free to make broken speakers out of working ones .
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Old 5th May 2013, 02:20 AM   #56
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If all along you had a nagging suspicion that there is no geometrically feasible way to wind a toroidal coil efficiently, raise your hand.

Good for you for recognizing a geometry koan... and for being honest.

But here is the industrial solution anyway (about halfway through the video). Judging from the toroid transformer videos, they must all be wound in India.

Manufacturer Of High Quality Toroidal Transformers - YouTube

Kind of like snapping a carabiner on an eye-bolt, a 12-inch ring with a hinged door is put on the 3-inch toroid core.

The ring is spun around (while the core sits still) and as it spins it is loaded from an external wire spool with the exact length of wire needed.

Then the ring is spun again, but this time, unloading the wire in turns on to the core (which is slowly rotated to space the turns).

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 5th May 2013 at 02:29 AM.
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Old 9th May 2013, 07:30 PM   #57
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Default just for fun

I remembered that i had some small toroid transformers. I though they where 220V / 15V but it turned out that they are 6V
I measured 1:71 at 1000Hz (2 transformers)

They are with nomex insolation but no other information (manufacture, Watts). The saturation >200Hz is a bit more then 20Vrms.

Here the measurements i made:

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 9th May 2013, 08:52 PM   #58
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Nice to see data like that. Thanks.

No clear to me what "loaded" primary, etc. means? Can you describe the test jig better.

With 10-ohms minimum input impedance, no big issue having a few ohms in series with the input wiring in order to present a nicer load to the amp. Of course, using two toroids with parallel inputs, that makes the load worse for the amp.

At 1:71, may not be necessary to have two toroids per channel (with the downsides of needing to wire primaries in parallel and secondaries in series).

Ben
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Old 9th May 2013, 11:57 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esltransformer View Post
I remembered that i had some small toroid transformers. I though they where 220V / 15V but it turned out that they are 6V
I measured 1:71 at 1000Hz (2 transformers)

They are with nomex insolation but no other information (manufacture, Watts). The saturation >200Hz is a bit more then 20Vrms.

Here the measurements i made:
Based on response and saturation measurements they look to be perfectly useable for a hybrid ESL.

Looking at your impedance measurements, there seems to be a considerable shift in resonance frequency between curves for 300pF and 460pF load. Is it possible that the 460pF measurements were taken with two transformers but the 300pF was taken with a single transformer?
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Old 10th May 2013, 08:16 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
Based on response and saturation measurements they look to be perfectly useable for a hybrid ESL.

Looking at your impedance measurements, there seems to be a considerable shift in resonance frequency between curves for 300pF and 460pF load. Is it possible that the 460pF measurements were taken with two transformers but the 300pF was taken with a single transformer?
No.

Yes, for a hybride they are very nice indeed. Only problem is: I not like hybride esl so it was just for the fun to measure the transformers.

Last edited by esltransformer; 10th May 2013 at 08:18 AM.
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