Dayton Wright XG-10 MK2 and XW-10 Subs - diyAudio
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Old 27th October 2012, 12:54 AM   #1
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Default Dayton Wright XG-10 MK2 and XW-10 Subs

Anyone have any experience with these speakers? I know they have the SF6 gas bags, and are a bit rare...before going to hear them anyone know what the approx cost would be in decent condition?? $1100 a bit much?

I have modded ML CLS and CLII, and Maggie Tympani IVa and Id, and also a Model1and Model 3 Acoustat...how would these compare?

Appreciate the advice...
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Old 27th October 2012, 12:41 PM   #2
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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I gess you saw this....sope work great...but you have got to Diy the panels so thay can be opend.. but i feel all panes should be setup to be opened...thay lose output in short time from dust an crued on the mylar...so the DW...you get gas,et....goodluck


What conductive coating did Dayton Wright use on the mylar membrane after liquid soap failed?

Paul Young2004-02-23 22:23
After the membrane was stretched and bonded to one of the polystyrene stator frames (using a €welding€ technique - the plastic was soaked in acetone until the surface softened and then it was pressed against hard the stretched membrane while the acetone evaporated and the plastic solidified) the coating was applied using a silk-screen method combined with a custom blended colloidal carbon based €paint€. We went to this paint due to problems with the soap coating just migrating over time off the membrane to somewhere (the stators?). A silk-screen was used to coat the membrane in thin stripes because we needed to keep the total resistance of the cell high enough that there would be close to zero charge migration across the surface at the lowest frequencies used (20Hz). If the surface resistance is too low, distortion is created as the membrane surface charge moves in response to the combination of the modulating electrostatic fields from the stators and the deflections of the membrane. However, we also wanted (with the XG-10) to change the coating from €soap€ to make it far more reliable and resistant to changes over a target operating life of 20+ years. We tried quite a variety of designs and chemicals to achieve the goals of: high ohms-per-square uniformity of resistance over both the surface and from cell-to-cell very high bonding strength to the membrane. In the end we had to blend our coating to a lower ohms-per-square resistance value than was desired - to achieve the degree of uniformity over the surface and from cell-to-cell. My memory isn't great on this part, but I think we were trying for a +/- 10 or 20 percent variability in both at max.. Had we used this coating over the entire surface, the cell resistance would have been too low and the forces on it would modulate at low frequencies causing waveform distortion. So we designed a simple silk-screen that put stripes of coating on the membrane. At each end of the cell (the short sides) there was a €buss bar€ of coating deposited that ran the width of the cell and was about 1 cm. wide. These coating buss bars were connected to each other along the long dimension of the cell using a series of parallel stripes about 1 mm wide separated by about 1 mm (a 50% coating density in effect). Using this method of coating we could achieve the target range of cell resistance. The raw material colloidal graphite coating that we used was purchased from a company called Atcheson (Atchison?) Colloids in the USA. We used some pretty evil solvents with it to both dilute it down to the correct viscosity for silk screening as well as to supply the chemical aggressiveness required to attack the mylar membrane to achieve a good bond strength after it evaporated. I will do my best remember the chemicals and resistance values - but since I have no notes left on these - don't blame me if they are not correct. They will be approx. at least: Solvents used with the colloidal graphite - hexanone(?), and Methyl Ethyl Ketone (M.E.K.) that is a base solvent for many commercial adhesives. NOTE - these things are very bad to inhale - be extremely careful - work outdoors if possible, and use an expensive organics suited air mask or separate clean breathing air supply!! Resistance values - basic coating (no stripes) was approx. 100K ohms/square, cell resistance (end-to-end) was approx. 100 Meg. ohms - not counting the series fixed carbon €safety€ resistor (re catastrophic arcing) that was connected between the EHT supply and one end of the cell at the bus bar strip. The other end of the cells stripes where they met the bus bar stripe was left floating. The design was a success re coatings because they were uniform, the distortion was very low, and nothing could remove that coating once it dried. I have a friend who is still using his XG-10s today and I built them for him in 1977. Hope this helps you.

Last edited by tyu; 27th October 2012 at 12:45 PM.
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Old 27th October 2012, 01:09 PM   #3
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Be caerefull check the foam surrounds on the subs rots. $1100 in good condition is OK.
Fully gassed they have a very nice bottom end, a double pair stacked was very good...

I have 5 pairs of Dayton Wright cells - 2 good pairs XG10, 2 XG8 with bad cells, 1 XG10 mk 2 that need new cell, 2 subs that need new cones, the SF 6 gas tank and regulator, spare HV cables etc, spare transformers, 1 IM 11 , parts to build 2 IM 10, etc , new mylar for cell covers, - looking to sell the lot - 1300 lbs of electrostatic parts ---

Last edited by ticknpop; 27th October 2012 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 27th October 2012, 01:19 PM   #4
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Looks like johns set......let us know how thay sound....any pic..??goodluck
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Old 27th October 2012, 01:22 PM   #5
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Are the subs able to work on any speaker or made to work with only the DW XG-10?? Are they passive?
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Old 27th October 2012, 11:05 PM   #6
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The DW Subs are a 4 ohms load with passive crossover with 2 x 9 or 10 inch woofers with SF 6 in sealed bags in the boxes to lower the cutoff frequency. Could work with other speakers too. They are 4 ohm loads which parrallel with the high (30 to 60 ohms or so) low frequency impedance of the DW cells so not too bad a load when combined with ESL's .

With other speakers the 4 ohm subs in parrallel with likely 4 or 8 ohm main speakers means you need a very good high current amp to drive the combination.

Last edited by ticknpop; 27th October 2012 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 10th November 2012, 05:49 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyu View Post
I gess you saw this....sope work great...but you have got to Diy the panels so thay can be opend.. but i feel all panes should be setup to be opened...thay lose output in short time from dust an crued on the mylar...so the DW...you get gas,et....goodluck


What conductive coating did Dayton Wright use on the mylar membrane after liquid soap failed?

Paul Young2004-02-23 22:23
After the membrane was stretched and bonded to one of the polystyrene stator frames (using a ”welding” technique - the plastic was soaked in acetone until the surface softened and then it was pressed against hard the stretched membrane while the acetone evaporated and the plastic solidified) the coating was applied using a silk-screen method combined with a custom blended colloidal carbon based ”paint”. We went to this paint due to problems with the soap coating just migrating over time off the membrane to somewhere (the stators?). A silk-screen was used to coat the membrane in thin stripes because we needed to keep the total resistance of the cell high enough that there would be close to zero charge migration across the surface at the lowest frequencies used (20Hz). If the surface resistance is too low, distortion is created as the membrane surface charge moves in response to the combination of the modulating electrostatic fields from the stators and the deflections of the membrane. However, we also wanted (with the XG-10) to change the coating from ”soap” to make it far more reliable and resistant to changes over a target operating life of 20+ years. We tried quite a variety of designs and chemicals to achieve the goals of: high ohms-per-square uniformity of resistance over both the surface and from cell-to-cell very high bonding strength to the membrane. In the end we had to blend our coating to a lower ohms-per-square resistance value than was desired - to achieve the degree of uniformity over the surface and from cell-to-cell. My memory isn't great on this part, but I think we were trying for a +/- 10 or 20 percent variability in both at max.. Had we used this coating over the entire surface, the cell resistance would have been too low and the forces on it would modulate at low frequencies causing waveform distortion. So we designed a simple silk-screen that put stripes of coating on the membrane. At each end of the cell (the short sides) there was a ”buss bar” of coating deposited that ran the width of the cell and was about 1 cm. wide. These coating buss bars were connected to each other along the long dimension of the cell using a series of parallel stripes about 1 mm wide separated by about 1 mm (a 50% coating density in effect). Using this method of coating we could achieve the target range of cell resistance. The raw material colloidal graphite coating that we used was purchased from a company called Atcheson (Atchison?) Colloids in the USA. We used some pretty evil solvents with it to both dilute it down to the correct viscosity for silk screening as well as to supply the chemical aggressiveness required to attack the mylar membrane to achieve a good bond strength after it evaporated. I will do my best remember the chemicals and resistance values - but since I have no notes left on these - don't blame me if they are not correct. They will be approx. at least: Solvents used with the colloidal graphite - hexanone(?), and Methyl Ethyl Ketone (M.E.K.) that is a base solvent for many commercial adhesives. NOTE - these things are very bad to inhale - be extremely careful - work outdoors if possible, and use an expensive organics suited air mask or separate clean breathing air supply!! Resistance values - basic coating (no stripes) was approx. 100K ohms/square, cell resistance (end-to-end) was approx. 100 Meg. ohms - not counting the series fixed carbon ”safety” resistor (re catastrophic arcing) that was connected between the EHT supply and one end of the cell at the bus bar strip. The other end of the cells stripes where they met the bus bar stripe was left floating. The design was a success re coatings because they were uniform, the distortion was very low, and nothing could remove that coating once it dried. I have a friend who is still using his XG-10s today and I built them for him in 1977. Hope this helps you.
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Old 10th November 2012, 05:54 PM   #8
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I STILL HAVE A TANK OF SFG...NEED ONE???
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Old 10th November 2012, 11:24 PM   #9
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Paul Young was the guiding spirit of the Dayton-Wright design for the last half-dozen years till the demise of Leigh Instruments.

I've run my XG-8s (I think) for about 30 years - most of that with a DD high-voltage amp. They seem pretty sturdy, unless you have a cat.

I've never heard a better way to generate music sound waves ever, at least across the sound spectrum excepting top and bottom 1 - 2 octaves. If you have adequate bias and the drive voltage, the cells (and most of the rest of the system like the welded frames....) are a purist's dream and make Quad and other commercial cells seem puny and they look slapped together from spare parts as compromises.

Ben
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Last edited by bentoronto; 10th November 2012 at 11:27 PM.
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Old 7th August 2013, 09:19 AM   #10
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Just out of curiosity:
freons, R116 in particular, have about the same properties as SF6
Did anybody tried to retrofit Dayton-Wright with freon instead of original gas?
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