Apogee Scintilla - Information about the Efficiency wanted - Page 4 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Planars & Exotics

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 3rd August 2012, 12:15 AM   #31
diyAudio Member
 
LineSource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SiliconValley
Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Line , could you explain the midrange setup a bit more , what's the advantage of the t-ribbons , this would appear to me to be more harmful than good ...advantages ...? ....
I suspect Apogee had 4 reasons behind the Scintilla M-T ribbon design:
1) KEY.. Reduce cost by having only one magnet gap for both the M and 4xTs.
2) Reduce comb filtering by having Ts on top of the M. In the Full Range Apogee the 0.5" wide T was crossed at 10Khz with a 6db/octave slope to the 2" wide midrange, and even physically adjacent this M-T just met a 1-Lambda spacing and not 1/4 Lambda ideal goal.
3) M and 4xTs put 4xT aluminum foil in series to increase the resistance + SPL_area and hence give an easier amplifier load.
4) I suspect the Apogee engineers like the sound of the M-4T cardiod radiation and decided that they could both reduce cost and also provide greats sound even with a simple low order Xover. There were several positive reviews for the Scintillas which describe how coherent the M-T sounds.

If money is no object, I think a separate M and T ribbon is superior with the proper crossover frequencies and slopes. I would use a line array of 3-4 dipole woofers in place of the Apogee style flat planar bass panel. A steep slope like LR8 between the bass-mid helps remove the M-ribbon bass bounce seen on Apogees. LR4 between the M-T is superior to the 6db slope used in Apogees.

Back-in-the-day Krell crossovers with 18db/octave slopes often replaced the original 6db/octave Apogees. The 18db/octave is the steepest possible with one buffer amp stage.
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th August 2012, 12:43 AM   #32
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
diyAudio Member
 
a.wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Thanks LS,

What are you driving your FR with these days and are you using any electronic xovers ...?
  Reply With Quote
Old 19th August 2012, 09:55 AM   #33
diyAudio Member
 
tiefbassuebertr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: D-55629 Schwarzerden
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groove-T View Post
tiefbassuebertrager

There exists no scintilla MK 4.

Like i wrote before, the german thing is a clone and has nothing to do with the real apogee! Actually lawyers are involved to clean up this mess!
Interesting facts.
This German hifi magazine does definitely not help to clear up this mess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th August 2012, 04:42 AM   #34
diyAudio Member
 
LineSource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SiliconValley
Quote:
Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
Thanks LS,

What are you driving your FR with these days and are you using any electronic xovers ...?
The Full Range Apogee Speakers are in our living room, so I use Krell equipment and MIT Music Hose cables as part of the decoration.

Each 3-way Full Range is bi-amped with one Krell KSA250 located just behind the speaker. A Krell KRX-1 electronic crossover with 18db/octave at 200Hz is used for for bass-MT outputs to each amp. One KSA250 channel direct drives the 2 ohm bass panel, and the second channel drives Apogee's M-T interface box which is ~4 ohms. This interface box contains a large toroidal step up transformer for the 0.1 ohm M-ribbon, plus resistors to step up the tweeter ribbon resistance to ~4 ohms, plus a 6db/octave passive L + C Xover at 10Khz. This is a very robust setup for the Full Range.

I have built DIY amps which direct drive the 0.1 ohm midrange ribbon and 2 ohm tweeter ribbons. Direct drive always produces greater dynamics and detail, but it is also easier to damage a ribbon by human error. I wish everyone could hear a large M-T ribbon speaker with direct drive amplification to understand how magical this technology can be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th October 2012, 11:46 PM   #35
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Storvreta
I would be very interested in You DIY amps.
I have a pair of 1 Ohm Scintillas myself and at this time I drive them with a Yamaha PC2602M amps with no problem what so ever.
I think I get about little over 800W out at the peaks before the clip-lamp starts to tell me that the amp is giving 1% distortion.

Please mail me if You feel like letting me in on the design!

Cheers!
__________________
The one who succeeded was the one who didn't know it was impossible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th October 2012, 08:04 AM   #36
diyAudio Member
 
tiefbassuebertr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: D-55629 Schwarzerden
ask there:
New Amp "ULTRASYMMETRY" from Nelson Pass - still a Concept Amplifier?
Perhaps from there you will find an excellent approach for your requirements.
check out also this thread:
Direct Drive amplifier for DIY ribbon?
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th January 2013, 07:12 PM   #37
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Default Help from LineSource on Apogee Full Ranges

LineSource--I read your thread below and would like to communicate with you more about the Apogee Full Ranges for learning purposes. Could you send me a PM, please? Thanks!

Kip
Quote:
Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
The Full Range Apogee Speakers are in our living room, so I use Krell equipment and MIT Music Hose cables as part of the decoration.

Each 3-way Full Range is bi-amped with one Krell KSA250 located just behind the speaker. A Krell KRX-1 electronic crossover with 18db/octave at 200Hz is used for for bass-MT outputs to each amp. One KSA250 channel direct drives the 2 ohm bass panel, and the second channel drives Apogee's M-T interface box which is ~4 ohms. This interface box contains a large toroidal step up transformer for the 0.1 ohm M-ribbon, plus resistors to step up the tweeter ribbon resistance to ~4 ohms, plus a 6db/octave passive L + C Xover at 10Khz. This is a very robust setup for the Full Range.

I have built DIY amps which direct drive the 0.1 ohm midrange ribbon and 2 ohm tweeter ribbons. Direct drive always produces greater dynamics and detail, but it is also easier to damage a ribbon by human error. I wish everyone could hear a large M-T ribbon speaker with direct drive amplification to understand how magical this technology can be.
  Reply With Quote
Old 15th January 2013, 12:52 AM   #38
diyAudio Member
 
DeltaStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Handel SK
Hi Kip, Do you still have your Scintilla's? If so have you replaced all the caps and inductors?
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2013, 12:36 AM   #39
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Yes--I still do, DeltaStar! In fact, even though I am on a journey to finally set up my Apogee Full Ranges, I still am awed by the Scintillas and listen to them every day.

When I restored them in 2007, I only had to replace two caps since the rest were in great shape. I did pot the larger inductor, though.

I hope LineSource will reply to me--I'm really looking for some advice in how best to set up and drive the Full Ranges.

Thank--

Kip

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaStar View Post
Hi Kip, Do you still have your Scintilla's? If so have you replaced all the caps and inductors?
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th January 2013, 02:59 AM   #40
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
diyAudio Member
 
a.wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Easy ..Krells , KMA -series .....


http://apogee-acoustics.de/download/..._Apogee_EN.pdf
__________________
World Cup Cat Hacky Sack given to Brazil and with 30seconds to go D Germans and the rest of Europe save face ..

Last edited by a.wayne; 16th January 2013 at 03:08 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Apogee Scintilla amp Thomas B Pass Labs 27 7th July 2012 04:12 PM
Valutronic speakers (kits) information wanted AlejandroR Multi-Way 8 1st December 2010 07:01 PM
Apogee Scintilla capacitors Dr.H Planars & Exotics 9 7th June 2009 04:35 PM
Wanted: USB board for Apogee mini-DAC Puggie Swap Meet 0 3rd April 2007 10:46 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 10:30 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2