Repairing Acoustat 3s, or making 1+1s... - Page 2 - diyAudio
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:20 AM   #11
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I never liked the 1+1 arrangement. The gap between the panels ends up very close to ear level when seated. NG. Although one would like to think of the panels as radiating evenly across their entire vertical dimension, the ears don't quite agree. With two panels stacked I hear them as two sources, top and bottom, mostly due to the gap between panels.

Having heard almost all of the arrangements, including 6's and 8's, My favorite is the 3. Good bass, and very good imaging. 4s have best bass of the non stacked multi panel versions. Very impressive.

If the bias is low, that is because either the caps in the multiplier string are leaky/dead and/or one or more of the HV diodes are blown. Good idea to replace all the caps with new ceramic NPO types of higher voltage and replace all the diodes with high voltage types too...

I had my 1+1s wedged between the floor and ceiling - nice fit - and expected more, as this ought to be an ideal situation for a line source! I was disappointed and did not like them compared to the standard 3s.

I do not know if wings would improve the 1+1 configuration.

Oh, the deficit I felt the most with the 1+1 is/was the lower midrange and upper mid bass. I have substantial subs to augment the bottom end.

Also, in a tall speaker the acoustical surface of the ceiling compared to the floor will greatly effect the apparent image location and virtual height, also the apparent frequency balance as well.

I think the Crown speakers use JanZen element and RTR tweeters? Interesting speakers... not quite up to todays standards though.

Not sure if these comments help or not...

_-_-bear
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Old 2nd July 2012, 05:07 AM   #12
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Bear, you bring up some of the concerns I've had about 1+1s. Like I said, it's been quite a while since I've heard 1+1s, but I recall being annoyed at the need to sit up very high in my seat for them to sound "right". I was thinking it had to do with the "gap" between upper & lower panels, but thought it may be correctable with tilting the panels down a bit. It sounds like you didn't find that to be much of a cure. I was a bit afraid someone would have tried this, and if it was that easy, everyone would be tilting their 1+1s like that. I'm more surprised to hear that fixing them to the ceiling helped so little. Discouraging news indeed, now I'm reconsidering replacing the damaged panel, and keeping the "Three" configuration.

The Crown used RTR panels... but very similar to JanZen. They sound pretty good now, but I think they will improve considerably once I go through the power supplies, and cross-overs. As they are now, the 'stats are having a hard time running all the way down to the 350hz factory cross-over point, and moving it up much to relieve the panels creates a hole in the lower mid range. I haven't measured voltages, but I suspect they are a little low. Still, very promising!
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Old 2nd July 2012, 02:04 PM   #13
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Look, some people really like the 1+1s better than the others. That's just my personal opinion. Fwiw I also preferred the side by side model "2" over the 1+1...

Crown used the black square cells (I think, if I remember right), which were JanZen and the blue 1/2 wide cells which were RTR. RTR, afaik merely copied JanZen. I had a friend with the Crowns, another with the Infinity ServoStatic 2, and I have owned a JanZen HF speaker... back in the day I salivated over them... but they have a peculiar sound, and will not play particularly loud. Also the coating on the diaphragm "gives up" where it connects out to the HV bias connection, causing them to fail. Of course that is after decades, but still.

_-_-bear


PS. I also own an example of the Stanton Isophase ESL!
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Old 2nd July 2012, 02:57 PM   #14
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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The 1+1 only work well in a smalll room i have found ....
But i think if you could take a 2+2 an get the bottem panels off the floor ...so the center of panels were at ear livel....Right....
Look there not much output you hear... less you stand....i dont stand...an dont know any one who dose...
So what do we know...
The panels sound better off the floor...the top panels dont do much ....but the interfaces i have found work better with more panels...
4 are a bit much...but we like that...bit much.... but i have found after all...The 1s,1+1s,2,2+2s.M3,M4s... 3ea 9" panels setup like the M3s flat...give the best sound ...but the 2s flat...is a vary good sound
Now back to the bias ...jim setup the 121 way it is because of .... $$$$$...he would have like to get the bias off the driver board...
.5kv buzzing around the caps an res...not the best thing....but it worket... This setup can pull bias down...so just rebild the bias...all the Acoustats are well over 30years old...bias is what a ESL is...i put mine in it own box...an i can set it from 4k-7k...thay have never sound better..
.what.you got the tranfourmers better than the one used in the 20k soundLabs..so mabe $50.ea..too rebild....yes...goodluck
Long Live Acoustats

Last edited by tyu; 2nd July 2012 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:04 PM   #15
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Actually, Crown used blue RTR panels, square in the ES224 & 212, and some of the rectangular ones in their smaller models. Though I don't know for certain, it has been suggested that RTR actually built all the Crown ES line of speakers by Crown's design. Infinity started out with RTR rectangular in the original SS1, but as they evolved, they shifted back & forth between RTR & JanZen... at least one version I've seen had both!

For the record, I'm much more of an electrostatic speaker horder/collector, than technical expert, and my skills are largely mechanical, so if I'm going to modify any of these, it'll be mostly centered around cabinets, with the electronics being handed off to more skilled people to straighten out.

BTW Bear, I'm not shifting my plans just off your post, I'm still on the fence. But your observations do parallel what I remember of the 1+1 sound - not that they were "bad", or I wouldn't be considering building them, but these are just some "extra" speakers that I'm trying to decide what to do with. I've even considered making 4 Acoustat 1s, and using the one good center panel as a center channel in a 5.1 system with a pair of Velodyne uld12s. But I really don't need a surround system, and then they would take up even more room!
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Old 2nd July 2012, 03:19 PM   #16
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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But if you are going to go with the 1+1s...keep the bad 8"panel...pop it apart...theres your wire for the long runs from the top panels....This wire sound great...not just any wire works as well ....i just add as much wire to the bottem panel as the top...goodluck
I have 10 janZen panels that work great...thanks for the pic
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Old 2nd July 2012, 09:37 PM   #17
ehous is offline ehous  United States
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If you look at my virtual system on audiogon, user name ehous. You will see my attempt at the 8" center panel. It is on axis with my listinging posistion and the 1+1's are acting as fill. It worked well, but not perfect. I like the Model two's beter and the model 2+2's even more. Currently using two plus two's.

Link: http://cgim.audiogon.com/i/vs/s/f/1261710315.jpg
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Old 2nd July 2012, 09:45 PM   #18
nworth is offline nworth  United States
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I have a pair of Acoustat 6s that I have been enjoying for over 20 years now. The main issue with Acoustats is driving them. They are an extremely reactive load, and many high grade solid state amplifiers simply burn up when faced with them; others distort badly. Tube amplifiers are much more tolerant, but if things sound bad, it is probably the amplifier.
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Old 4th July 2012, 08:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frommerstop View Post
I have a damaged pair of Acoustat model 3s. I bought them with one terminally damaged 9" center panel (something had smashed through it). I originally intended to replace the one (9") panel, but I was thinking about just making a pair of 1+1s out of the remaining good panels & transformers. What do you guys think? Is it worth finding a replacement center panel to make the 3s "right" again, or are the 1+1s nearly as good... maybe better in imaging? I'm not intimidated by making frames, I was planing to make something better for the 3s anyway, and I have a few good subs around, so bass isn't my main concern either. The real question is, are the 3s enough more "full bodied" to justify sourcing & buying another panel, or would 1+1s really perform as well.
For that matter, does anyone here know where I could find a 9" panel - or would anyone be interested in buying the other good one?
I have panels from Acoustat 3s and 4s available. you can write me at ramtubes@gmail.com
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Old 4th July 2012, 11:11 PM   #20
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Welcome to the forum Roger.

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