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Old 10th February 2012, 08:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arend-jan View Post
I don't know the answer to that. But I'm willing to take a guess.

Perhaps there were problems with the reliability of the spark detector? It seems preferable to have the spark detector referenced to the high voltage section in a predictable manner, not just by parasitics and whatever amplifier is hooked up.
Interesting thought...certainly the spark detector would be more sensitive to the RF energy emitted during arcing if the detector was referenced to part to the circuit through which the spark would conduct. However, several other ESL companies use the later arrangement where the primary and secondary are tied together and do not have a spark detector circuit to concern themselves with. Perhaps they just followed Quad's lead without much thought put into it? Wouldn't be the first time circuit arrangments were borrowed and used without fully understanding them.

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In the later models the input section and the high voltage section are referenced to the same internal ground. Which means connecting it so safety earth would connect one of the speaker input terminals to safety earth. Not all amplifiers are going to handle that gracefully so that might be the reason to keep the whole speaker floating?
Interesting that you should mention this since I just recently read on the ML forum that some models(the Quest was mentioned) had this arrangement and would destroy the output stages of balanced power amplifiers that were connected to safety ground through their own power cord.
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Old 12th February 2012, 01:15 PM   #32
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Bolserst
Thanks for the Quad info...looks like thay were using the {limiter} way back whin...What is that a NPN..PNP..no fet??...an how about that Cap..1.5uf
nothing is new....
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Old 15th February 2012, 09:37 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by tyu View Post
Bolserst
Thanks for the Quad info...looks like thay were using the {limiter} way back whin...What is that a NPN..PNP..no fet??...an how about that Cap..1.5uf
nothing is new....
Power BJT technology was much more mature back in the 60s than power FET. I'm sure that weighed in to the decision to use a BJT device for the limiter rather than a MOSFET. Most likely the 1.5uF cap is there to filter out the voltage transients from when the NPN transistor attempts to turns OFF after limiting a voltage peak.

Yes it does seem sometimes that we keep re-discovering old ideas.
This seems to be the case when technological advances are considered proprietary and are not patented or published.
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Old 23rd February 2012, 12:01 AM   #34
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My Icepower amp, for instance, does not have the amp speaker ground referenced to ground, so forcing it to ground could destroy the amp. I have my ESL floating...

Wouldn't this also apply to any amp that is bridged?
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Old 23rd February 2012, 01:29 PM   #35
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My Icepower amp, for instance, does not have the amp speaker ground referenced to ground, so forcing it to ground could destroy the amp. I have my ESL floating...

Wouldn't this also apply to any amp that is bridged?
Absolutely.
Connecting safety ground to the (-) speaker input terminal on an ESL is just not a good idea.
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Old 13th August 2014, 04:47 PM   #36
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You guys are fkn awesome , Newbie here but my outside observations are these.
After reading these post and looking at how ML used to do things I would like to add that older panels sounded worst than newer versions by default IE Electromotions => Vistas. Not sure if it has to do with with their power setups or Crossovers but Since we have a Spire diagram it would be nice if we could compare that to the Summit or Montis setup . The last ESL they made would have used their latest techniques when it came to safety right? but also modifications so that it wouldn't sound as good , I happen to have a pair that I could take pics of the internals and send them to you guys if it would help in any way .
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Old 13th August 2014, 11:30 PM   #37
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To address the original question about the mysterious variations, Mike Wright used to complain bitterly about what he felt were the nonsense requirements set for him by the Canadian Standards Assn (analogous to "UL Approved"). So maybe the configurations depend on the bodies doing the regulating and their incomplete grasp of the safety situation for ESL gear submitted to them.

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Old 14th August 2014, 02:58 PM   #38
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Dynamik...........yes send me all the info on any an all on the Logans stup....i get logans all the time...more the better..........thanks for your time
This sounds nuts but this ESL setup is ongoing for me..........To day with the older Logans i put the saty ground on the bias....then run though a 500 ohm res to the centap of the stepup tran....
On full rang ESL like Acoustas i run the saty ground to the center taps of the setup trans an then run a 500ohm to the bias...........an pull the metel case out of the saty ground...an let it flot.....Sound is way better....to me!

Last edited by tyu; 14th August 2014 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 24th August 2014, 01:42 AM   #39
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Dayton Wrights loaded both positive and negative oower amp inputs with 2.2 k resistors to chassis ground and used it as the HV power supply output reference as well
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Old 24th August 2014, 02:59 PM   #40
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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I cant see how runing any amps outputs pos-neg into two 2k an then togather ....can sound better.....but logan dose this also... in there on an off bias setup ....
Best sound i get out of the ML is to set the bias up were the panels are fed bias all the time.....after two days you can hear a diff....an by doing this you can get the 2k res on the pos-neg amp feeds out ...

The saft-ground has no place in the logan bias....after puting it back in....it dose sound better out!...on the older ML bias setups thay do put a res like 50ohms in be tween the cetap...
I think May be the SL an the Acoustats useing two diff transfourmer types in there interface setups ........the saft ground can be in the mix....an sound good?

But in the end floting the bias off the saft ground....has to sound better less the two diff trans ran togather thought the Mixer... work better with the one saft ground?
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