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Old 30th April 2012, 02:22 PM   #161
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Actually, I forgot to mention that I am currently using two sandwich combos per channel which means 4 Neo8 per speaker. Since I am not playing very loud I have no problem with choosing a low midrange crossover point. Also, using 4 Neo8 solves the impedance problem.
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Old 1st May 2012, 12:55 AM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinco Pallino View Post
Actually, I forgot to mention that I am currently using two sandwich combos per channel which means 4 Neo8 per speaker. Since I am not playing very loud I have no problem with choosing a low midrange crossover point. Also, using 4 Neo8 solves the impedance problem.
Pictures please...
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Old 1st May 2012, 07:49 AM   #163
Remlab is offline Remlab  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinco Pallino View Post
Actually, I forgot to mention that I am currently using two sandwich combos per channel which means 4 Neo8 per speaker. Since I am not playing very loud I have no problem with choosing a low midrange crossover point. Also, using 4 Neo8 solves the impedance problem.
Do you mean sandwich as in isobaric? If you do, I believe you are wasting four neo 8's and also giving rise to bizarre distortions that wouldn't otherwise be there in a normal configuration. You would be much better off stacking them all vertically..

Last edited by Remlab; 1st May 2012 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 11:49 AM   #164
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Yes, isobaric configuration. I don't think I am wasting anything. On the contrary: the sandwich means double magnetic force, double moving mass but single air mass. Result: increased efficiency especially in the lower frequencies, lower cutoff. Distortions -- where should they come from?
Stacking vertically only increases the size of the speaker which I consider undesirable because it creates more reflections, intermodulation and room reactions. I had four Neo8 stacked before and was unhappy with it.
Incidentally, Loewe, a German producer of TV/home cinema gear is offering a relatively small electrostat (150Hz-20kHz) satellite fitted with two closely sandwiched ESL panels, as far as I could ascertain. They tout this as a breakthrough.
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Old 1st May 2012, 01:36 PM   #165
Toaster is offline Toaster  United Kingdom
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It is almost certain that there will be comb-filter type cancellations with Neo 8s used this way. It'd be interesting to run a fr plot on this configuration. I haven't seen the Loewe electrostat, but it depends on the diaphragm spacing, and whether they are physically connected as to what frequency you would start to see cancellations.
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Old 1st May 2012, 10:54 PM   #166
Remlab is offline Remlab  United States
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One of the things I can see as a potential problem with this isobaric configuration is that the balanced "symmetric" motor configuration is no longer balanced and symmetric. The diaphragm of each transducer will see a stronger magnetic force on one side than on the other. This may add HD that wasn't there to begin with. The "neutral" air mass between the drivers may not be as neutral as you think do to possible turbulence within the elongated motor and frame structure. As long as it's crossed over low enough, I don't see comb filtering as a potential issue..

Last edited by Remlab; 1st May 2012 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 11:33 PM   #167
Remlab is offline Remlab  United States
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Pinco
I went to the Loewe website, but could not find anything involving a dual diaphragm electrostatic panel. Everything I saw was based on a single diaphragm. Could you please post this info? Sounds very intriguing..
Seth
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Old 2nd May 2012, 05:21 PM   #168
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The distance between the diaphragms of two sandwiched Neo8 icorresponds to the thickness of the baffle, in my case 1/2 " or 12 mm. Comb filter effects would therefore only arrrive at beyond cutoff frequencies, as Remlab pointed out. On the other hand I believe the magnetic forces acting between the two Neo8 are suifficiently damped by the distance not to pull the diaphragms out of symmetry. The sheet of urethane foam, i.e. the 'stuffing' of the sandwich, does reduce internal reflections and prevents part of the treble emitted by the speaker facing the inside of the enclosure from radiating through the front speaker.

As regards Loewe they are very cagey in describing their 'stat. I asked the sales people in one of their fancy downtown stores what the principle of their stats was, and they were totally uninformed. I'll look up Loewe catalog and find the precise (nebulous) term they use and they are so proud of. Since the stats are very thin, only about one inch thick I can only imagine that they use three stators (and two diaphragms between them); the middle stator showing opposite polarity in both directions.
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Old 2nd May 2012, 06:53 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Remlab View Post
Hi guys
Interesting new "discovery" about the Neo 10. I suspected that the 2nd order HD peak at 5khz, and the 3rd at 2.8khz (As seen on Zaph's website) are "sub-harmonic" artifacts of the 9khz frequency response peak. I spoke to Igor about this to get a verification and he agreed. In other words, if you filter out the 9 khz fr peak by a given amount , the sub-harmonic distortion is also lowered by the same amount at 5 and 2.8khz. Ultimately this is probably trivial info, but it could be useful and informative..
Seth
Just found this thread. Some really great and inspiring experimentation being done. A note about harmonic distortion - digitally filtering out the high frequency peak won't touch the distortion of lower fundamentals, as the peak is actually still there in the speaker. Acoustical filtering, such as a mesh grill, is needed to lower distortion, although getting the desired frequency response then becomes an issue.
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Old 2nd May 2012, 09:33 PM   #170
Remlab is offline Remlab  United States
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Spartacus
Panel speakers are different from other speakers in that not only do they have hd above the fundamental,they also have pronounced subharmonic distortions that exist below the fundamental due to semi chaotic resonances produced as a byproduct of a flimsy diaphragm stretched like a drum over the frame. Electrostatics also have this problem. This is different than conventional drivers that primarily have their hd above the fundamental. The logic you have to apply to this is somewhat counterintuitive and confusing. I do need to point out though that this discussion is ultimately academic in nature if the distortion is below the threshold of audibility anyway...
Seth

Last edited by Remlab; 2nd May 2012 at 09:50 PM.
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