I think that "transparency" has more to do with the optimization of many factors including a lack of internal(air) and external(panel) box resonances than it does with the type of driver being used. All other factors being equal, I would have to say that not having a large magnet reflecting the upper midrange and lower treble bands back into the membrane certainly helps..
As far as HD is concerned, I think that it is more important than the establishment thinks. At least when it comes to long term listening fatigue. All else being equal, a competently designed loudspeaker with extremely low levels of high order HD is going to be way easier on the ears over a period of hours than than a competently designed speaker that has relatively moderate(1%?) levels. Relatively high levels of high order hd is probably what makes you say "These speakers sound amazingly good! So why do I always have a desparate need to turn the music off after a while?" I feel that relatively short term (and paid) listening tests (Geddes, Lee) don't go far enough to expose this phenomena..
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I see it as a combination of factors:
No large magnet to reflect the rear wave.
Virtually no inductance or resistance variation.
All sound emanating from a flat plane.
Every time I switch back to auditioning a standard cone driver running full range, I feel like I can hear the same coloration to the sound that cupping your hands around your mouth and speaking produces.
Greg
Electrostats
Hi All,
I am back from two visits of the Munich HiEnd fair. Many big names missing, others much reduced in size. The latest in speaker fashions, gaudi and grotesque. Lots of monstrous analog gear, destined to the museum, I suppose.
With Loewe absent I could not learn more about their 'stat. But I found a new producer of ES called 'Purist'. an ML clone by the looks. Inside I was told are two diaphragms between the two stators. One is the usual split tweeter/woofer design, the other is "filling the lower midrange depression typical of 'stats," I was told. The small German company seems to have good relations with neighboring Czechia, they use huge Czech 3 kv OTL mono amps. Nice sound.
Another new 'stat producer is PIO Sound from the Netherlands. Looks like an Audiostatic clone, comes in three sizes and sounds very nice.
A third producer of 'stats is KingSound of Hong Kong. Flat panels of Audiostatic shape in several sizes, multi-segmented. Could not listen to them.
No other planar speakers except some NXT-type panels and some awfully sounding wooden boards with a motor glued to them.
Pinco
Hi All,
I am back from two visits of the Munich HiEnd fair. Many big names missing, others much reduced in size. The latest in speaker fashions, gaudi and grotesque. Lots of monstrous analog gear, destined to the museum, I suppose.
With Loewe absent I could not learn more about their 'stat. But I found a new producer of ES called 'Purist'. an ML clone by the looks. Inside I was told are two diaphragms between the two stators. One is the usual split tweeter/woofer design, the other is "filling the lower midrange depression typical of 'stats," I was told. The small German company seems to have good relations with neighboring Czechia, they use huge Czech 3 kv OTL mono amps. Nice sound.
Another new 'stat producer is PIO Sound from the Netherlands. Looks like an Audiostatic clone, comes in three sizes and sounds very nice.
A third producer of 'stats is KingSound of Hong Kong. Flat panels of Audiostatic shape in several sizes, multi-segmented. Could not listen to them.
No other planar speakers except some NXT-type panels and some awfully sounding wooden boards with a motor glued to them.
Pinco
Seth, look here:
Quad Reference ESL-2805 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Atkinson actually mentions the subharmonics generated from planar membranes in relation to the last graph on the page.
Greg
Quad Reference ESL-2805 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Atkinson actually mentions the subharmonics generated from planar membranes in relation to the last graph on the page.
Greg
Thanks, Greg.
Speaking of Atkinson, Everyone involved with diy loudspeakers needs to read this if they haven't already..
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/download/MeasuringLoudspeakers_JohnAtkinson.pdf
This series of articles, written back in 98' and 99', is where I first read about subharmonics. I think Troels site is the only place you can read all three parts at once..
Seth
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Loewe stat
I finally got hold of the Loewe catalog. In their technical specs they describe their 'stat as a "2-Wege-Inverselektrostat" which I understand as a two-way inverting electrostat. But what does the magic word inverting mean?
Pinco
I finally got hold of the Loewe catalog. In their technical specs they describe their 'stat as a "2-Wege-Inverselektrostat" which I understand as a two-way inverting electrostat. But what does the magic word inverting mean?
Pinco
Aaah...the infamous inverting electrostat.
Now out of business, FINAL somehow managed to get a patent(attached) on this style of ESL even though it was well known and presented as prior art in multiple patents as far back as Kellog's in 1929.
Most ESLs charge the diaphragm with a high resistance coating and drive the stators with audio signal from a step-up transformer.
- Advantage is vanishingly low distortion if coating resistance is high enough to achieve constant charge operation
Inverting ESLs using a highly conductive diaphragm and drive it with audio signal from the step-up transformer.
The two stators are connected to equal but opposite polarity HV supplies.
-Claimed advantage is 6dB greater sensitivity which is possible, but seldom seen in practice due to other design practicalities.
Results of comparison test between the two drive methods posted here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/199943-measuring-sensitivity-esls.html#post2779302
-Obvious disadvantage is the inherent non-linear driving force with conductive diaphragm,
not to mention the reliability issues with the conductive coating.
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Dick Olsher review..
Final Sound 1000i Electrostatic Loudspeaker Review By Dick Olsher
So HD is going to be inherently lower in the more conventional design method. Correct?
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Correct.
For conventional constant charge method, force on diaphragm is proportional to signal voltage and independent of position of diaphragm in the gap.
For inverting method, force on diaphragm is proportional to the square of the signal voltage and is also a function of the diaphragm's position in the gap.
They have tested hundreds of albums of all types for the highest and lowest dynamic range..
Final redivivus?
The new Dutch PioSound 'stats claim to have a patent on "Electrostatic Elements Technology (ESE)" and ADS -- "Active Diaphragm System"-- with "dynamic damping" and a new "carbon technology".
The sound is very nice but what does this gobbledegook mean?
The new Dutch PioSound 'stats claim to have a patent on "Electrostatic Elements Technology (ESE)" and ADS -- "Active Diaphragm System"-- with "dynamic damping" and a new "carbon technology".
The sound is very nice but what does this gobbledegook mean?
They certainly are pretty looking panels.
I see Ronald Buining listed on the company's website.
He was one of the guys who headed up FINAL. I hope he has better success this time around.
You can read about some of the new gobbledegook in his latest patent application.
Patent US20100272309 - Electrostatic Speaker Systems and Methods - Google Patents
Active Diaphragm System = same old inverting ESL arrangement used on FINALs
Dynamic Damping = notch filters to tame room modes and diaphragm resonances (best I can tell from patent app)
Carbon Technology = new conductive coating that will hopeful be more reliable that what was used on FINALs
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Here is my latest application of the BG Neo 10, sealed and running from 320hz & up..
I will eventually fit the Neo 10 with a flat silver silver frame to match the Peerless HDS drive units..
001.jpg picture by remlab - Photobucket
I will eventually fit the Neo 10 with a flat silver silver frame to match the Peerless HDS drive units..
001.jpg picture by remlab - Photobucket
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