Graz,
If you want to hawk your commercial wares, DIYaudio.com has a Vendor's Bazaar area for that purpose.
Vendor's Bazaar - diyAudio
This area of the forum is for DIY'ers. If you'd like to offer up advice/help/products in that context it would be appropriate and appreciated.
Dave.
If you want to hawk your commercial wares, DIYaudio.com has a Vendor's Bazaar area for that purpose.
Vendor's Bazaar - diyAudio
This area of the forum is for DIY'ers. If you'd like to offer up advice/help/products in that context it would be appropriate and appreciated.
Dave.
I was simply replying to questions raised in a courteous manner, not wanting to be ignorant
But every time I post anything you bark at me. The post content was not directed at you - perhaps you could switch out from seeing my input here? I like the energy in here but it's difficult to get anything done when somebody trolls for conflict...Actually, I have had a diy specific idea in mind for a long while, just considering how to formulate it for maximum fun...
Graz the terrible
I can say about Apogee Stages...... they changed my life in the early 1990s.....no longer was I tied to ESLs....to feed me my....call it... ear candy addiction....... needed every day for my well being...an how about this setup pic.......................yes
An I like a little tube sound in there some times........an it not going to happen with any of the biger full rang ribbons (I have heard.-owned)...
Stages...Ribbon hybrids....work well with tubes.... can be had at vary low cost......life is good...
Also I pick up one of the best sounding amps for driving Apogees..Chiro C-500 THX Amps by Kinergetics Research.......I paid $100..... great match for ribbons...
thanks to all here on this great site...for any an all input on getting better sound out of these great speakers......
An I like a little tube sound in there some times........an it not going to happen with any of the biger full rang ribbons (I have heard.-owned)...
Stages...Ribbon hybrids....work well with tubes.... can be had at vary low cost......life is good...
Also I pick up one of the best sounding amps for driving Apogees..Chiro C-500 THX Amps by Kinergetics Research.......I paid $100..... great match for ribbons...
thanks to all here on this great site...for any an all input on getting better sound out of these great speakers......
Attachments
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Yes, that's one of Ish's systems. He did much experimenting. I haven't heard from him in a while. Hope he's doing well.
I believe Graz is just teasing here. He and I chatted offline after our last dust up and he intimated he was thinking along DIY lines. However, he wouldn't divulge any information.
As I told him then, if he comes forward with something substantial to help out the DIY crowd which allows repairs to the various Apogee models within reasonable costs, I will be the first to applaud him.
For those of you who don't know, the Apogee Duetta Advance 7 he just pointed to is a six-figure ($$$) system completely out of the realm of real-world audiophiles.
Cheers,
Dave.
I believe Graz is just teasing here. He and I chatted offline after our last dust up and he intimated he was thinking along DIY lines. However, he wouldn't divulge any information.
As I told him then, if he comes forward with something substantial to help out the DIY crowd which allows repairs to the various Apogee models within reasonable costs, I will be the first to applaud him.
For those of you who don't know, the Apogee Duetta Advance 7 he just pointed to is a six-figure ($$$) system completely out of the realm of real-world audiophiles.
Cheers,
Dave.
Nope, the Duetta Advance 7 will sell for north of $100,000.00 USD.....from what I understand. (He can correct me if I'm wrong.)
I don't know who the target demographic is, but obviously there is no economies of scale at work here.
Anyways, that's all off-topic. Sorry for the jack.
Dave.
re Apogee Acoustics Duetta Advance 7, standard efficiency, with high quality passive outboard crossover = $65k USD. Other options available, including (but not limited to) active speakers only (less), high efficiency (more). Should anybody want me to expand it would be better to contact me directly - this is not the place...
For the record I have only posted this here as I have been requested, and that other inaccurate estimates have been eluded to. Apologies to those incensed or distressed
------
Davey - I offered to communicate via phone re a fun idea I had especially for this forum a while back. Not wanting to be the only architect of this (this is a diy forum where people collaborate for fun) I reached out to set up a land line phone chat with you, as a can-do person who is well known here, and known to me from the old Apogee forum days. You suggested you would charge a fee for this discussion, and the idea didn't progress - so we didn't actually chat. So perhaps you may have imagined something other than what I had in mind...
There are always things to do, people to solve problems for, company that I can keep in a pleasing way and duties that need to be performed. I choose the less resistive path when it comes to spending shared time.
That said - the offer still stands.
Take care - Graz
For the record I have only posted this here as I have been requested, and that other inaccurate estimates have been eluded to. Apologies to those incensed or distressed
------
Davey - I offered to communicate via phone re a fun idea I had especially for this forum a while back. Not wanting to be the only architect of this (this is a diy forum where people collaborate for fun) I reached out to set up a land line phone chat with you, as a can-do person who is well known here, and known to me from the old Apogee forum days. You suggested you would charge a fee for this discussion, and the idea didn't progress - so we didn't actually chat. So perhaps you may have imagined something other than what I had in mind...
There are always things to do, people to solve problems for, company that I can keep in a pleasing way and duties that need to be performed. I choose the less resistive path when it comes to spending shared time.
That said - the offer still stands.
Take care - Graz
Graz,
The mischaracterizations are not necessary. I absolutely did not expect a "fee for discussion." Clearly it's you who have imagined something other than what I had in mind.
My expectation was only applicable if you were expecting me to actually provide a tangible product/portion to your "DIY project" (whatever that is.) I clearly related that to you. Regardless, as I related at the time, IF you needed consultation with some aspect and the product produced was targeted for DIY usage ONLY, I had NO interest in any financial compensation.
Anyways, the whole exchange was completely coy with zero information on your part, so obviously there was nothing to be interested (or disinterested) in. Let's not forget, you were the one who contacted me initially.
I have no clue what a "DIY fun idea" is from your perspective, but by all means relate it here vice this silly teasing. There are numerous Apogee owners out in the world with speakers with issues that are looking for DIY/affordable repair options. IF you have something, let's hear it for crying out loud!
That said, the vast majority of Apogee DIY repairs that industrious users have already implemented you have bad-mouthed. So, you can understand why some might raise an eyebrow at your apparent "shift" in focus.
Thank you for the pricing information/correction on the new Duetta speaker system. If you had published this information when announcing the system initially, you would have reduced the speculation that ensued. However, it seems clear you were gauging the market only for the purpose of establishing a price point. I suggest to update your website to include the new speaker....with pricing information. Currently, I see nothing there at all mentioning it.
I purchased my Duetta speakers brand-new for $2580.00 thirty years ago. Even adjusting for inflation, clearly the brand has changed.
Dave.
The mischaracterizations are not necessary. I absolutely did not expect a "fee for discussion." Clearly it's you who have imagined something other than what I had in mind.
My expectation was only applicable if you were expecting me to actually provide a tangible product/portion to your "DIY project" (whatever that is.) I clearly related that to you. Regardless, as I related at the time, IF you needed consultation with some aspect and the product produced was targeted for DIY usage ONLY, I had NO interest in any financial compensation.
Anyways, the whole exchange was completely coy with zero information on your part, so obviously there was nothing to be interested (or disinterested) in. Let's not forget, you were the one who contacted me initially.
I have no clue what a "DIY fun idea" is from your perspective, but by all means relate it here vice this silly teasing. There are numerous Apogee owners out in the world with speakers with issues that are looking for DIY/affordable repair options. IF you have something, let's hear it for crying out loud!
That said, the vast majority of Apogee DIY repairs that industrious users have already implemented you have bad-mouthed. So, you can understand why some might raise an eyebrow at your apparent "shift" in focus.
Thank you for the pricing information/correction on the new Duetta speaker system. If you had published this information when announcing the system initially, you would have reduced the speculation that ensued. However, it seems clear you were gauging the market only for the purpose of establishing a price point. I suggest to update your website to include the new speaker....with pricing information. Currently, I see nothing there at all mentioning it.
I purchased my Duetta speakers brand-new for $2580.00 thirty years ago. Even adjusting for inflation, clearly the brand has changed.
Dave.
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Graz,
The mischaracterizations are not necessary. I absolutely did not expect a "fee for discussion." Clearly it's you who have imagined something other than what I had in mind.
Then this goes to prove that emails can be misleading. I have only once had such problems in establishing a call that never happened with that dude despite 70+ emails re restoration!!! It seems you are not interested. So leave it alone, easy. Forget about me, rather than bagging me in every forum you frequent, it's really weird behaviour...
My expectation was only applicable if you were expecting me to actually provide a tangible product/portion to your "DIY project" (whatever that is.) I clearly related that to you. Regardless, as I related at the time, IF you needed consultation with some aspect and the product produced was targeted for DIY usage ONLY, I had NO interest in any financial compensation.
Anyways, the whole exchange was completely coy with zero information on your part, so obviously there was nothing to be interested (or disinterested) in. Let's not forget, you were the one who contacted me initially.
As it was just an idea for a diy project at the time (and now) it's in flux. 10 mins call would have nailed your opinion. Normal people would speak on the phone, when every exchange with you seems to be like a divorcing couple in court!!! My bad for thinking a conversation with you would yield benefits...
I have no clue what a "DIY fun idea" is from your perspective, but by all means relate it here vice this silly teasing. There are numerous Apogee owners out in the world with speakers with issues that are looking for DIY/affordable repair options. IF you have something, let's hear it for crying out loud!
Here, again you are adding 2+2 and getting 22. This is a separate project. The idea was fun. Fun, imho does not need the fun vampire...
That said, the vast majority of Apogee DIY repairs that industrious users have already implemented you have bad-mouthed. So, you can understand why some might raise an eyebrow at your apparent "shift" in focus.
This is because of the destruction. You don't have the figures for just how many Apogee's have been PROPERLY rebuilt, or how many home restored, and how many failed the home build experience! Only 2 weeks ago another of the "positive" (on my record) results of home repaired Apogee's turned up at an Installers. The report was awful - and sadly the client hadn't listened to them for nearly a decade. I was previously unaware. He had retained them despite this, now they are receiving the care and proper service an experienced Installer can give them. As I have said many times before - these are intelligent people, often VERY intelligent. Replacing a pair of planar bass first time, accurately requires kit and facilities costing way in excess of an Installer's fee, and the skill to complete the task. All Installers have flunked this (me too), several times. When we fail, the client is not disadvantaged as we fix our own mistakes. And I repeat again - the diy project is not about repairing early Apogee's!!!
Thank you for the pricing information/correction on the new Duetta speaker system. If you had published this information when announcing the system initially, you would have reduced the speculation that ensued. However, it seems clear you were gauging the market only for the purpose of establishing a price point.
Incorrect. The price was set in June 2015 for the regular efficiency+crossover version. People curious would work out that a metal speaker would cost more than a mainly board one. I released the speaker on my forum and one of the usual debbie-downer crew jumped in with the usual lines about Apogee being only for the wealthy. My product releases have always been marred by such activity (Synergy's - fear of earthquakes, Classic's - price should be <e4000 by a person who made his own Duetta styled copies for sale at $20,000!!). Well, there are a lot of choices out there in speakerland.
25 years ago Apogee's cheapest entry hybrid (Centaur Minor) cost more than half the original Duetta's cost! When this forum regular kicked off a fight in my forum, I gave up posting there. Real clients contact me via email, skype, phone, and sometimes face up. And no client so far has been surprised at the price. Clients like things to be just right, and often have a fair idea of whet they need and want. I always have work to do, because I work hard, and take care of my clients...
I suggest to update your website to include the new speaker....with pricing information. Currently, I see nothing there at all mentioning it.
I will when the first reviews are published. Until then I am keeping pictures minimal, as there are those who seek to learn from pictures, and mimic commercially.
I purchased my Duetta speakers brand-new for $2580.00 thirty years ago. Even adjusting for inflation, clearly the brand has changed.
Dave.
No - Apogee always was about high end principles, design, and consequently pricing.
Compared to cars and houses, they were always a dear speaker, and despite that went down in 1999 for a frightening deficit, so clearly not priced to be profitable! I have the facts here. And the new speakers are built of different materials and tolerances requiring more detailed and accurate engineering.
Take a look at other competing brands, perhaps the ML CLX would be a good price comparison here. Compare it to a Classic (new build) or fully restored by Installer Duetta. I often wonder if ML get emails or forum stuff like this from people who bought speakers 30-35 years ago and wonder why the current speakers have a higher numerical dollar value. I would expect the average Apogee or ML owner would have the kind of mind that could crunch the question without texting their lack of comprehension to the world!!!
Inflation, now that is a real can of worms. If you believe in the cpi (without houses against which ALL expenditure for a family is set) then you have bigger problems coming than sticker shock on speakers!! Take a look at your nice 30yo Duetta price, and the product. You could have gotten a high percentage of a Lotus for that Duetta price at the time, now you couldn't get a set of wheels for that 1970/80's Lotus for that!!! 2016 currency is lightweight compared to 30 years ago, and I am not involved in that game - just a victim of it like most other folk. It's not my job to teach real inflation values to people in a diy speaker forum on my time off - research it yourself!!
Now, if you need your Caliper's, Duetta's, Divas, Scintillas, Full Ranges, Grands or most other historic Apogee ribbons fixed - please email me at work, I am happy to help. Ditto newbuilds. Not here - it's my time off. If you want a fight, tell MrT you don't like his haircut or something! Or tell Arnie Swartzenegger he's not so bad!! Or that their fees have gone up since the 1980s
When I come here, strange as it may seem it's mostly for play - though each time I get barked at. Sometimes to correct heresay. As I work full time in speaker manufacturing I understand the line can be blurry - but I don't want to chat about why I feel planar Apogee's are best repaired properly every time I pop in on my day off! I don't want to discuss Apogee business on my days off!!
But - I still have an interesting diy idea NOT to do with repairs to original planar Apogee's...
And there expires my time to play in here today, again, wasted on the same subjects as every other time. Nothing achieved. Groundhog day.
Off to the beach!
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=Fvq_Vt-SE8fP0ATn34iADg
Take care - Graz
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So, the "interesting DIY idea" has NOTHING to do with repair of original Apogee's. Finally something of note! I wish you would have mentioned that early on in our past email exchange.
And you're still not interested in helping Apogee owners with DIY repair of their speakers. Oh well.
Graz, really, this type of DIY forum is not for you.
You've got your own forum where you can hold forth and moderate/delete with impunity. That's a much more appropriate venue for you.
My point regarding the Apogee brand was simple. But let me re-state even more simply.
Back then a pair of Duetta's were affordable by the average guy. Now, they're not.
If selling speakers to Paul Allen is your objective, then you're on the right track.
Have fun at the beach.
Dave.
And you're still not interested in helping Apogee owners with DIY repair of their speakers. Oh well.
Graz, really, this type of DIY forum is not for you.
You've got your own forum where you can hold forth and moderate/delete with impunity. That's a much more appropriate venue for you.
My point regarding the Apogee brand was simple. But let me re-state even more simply.
Back then a pair of Duetta's were affordable by the average guy. Now, they're not.
If selling speakers to Paul Allen is your objective, then you're on the right track.
Have fun at the beach.
Dave.
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Discussion is getting really bizarre, just like on the Apogee forums, which is really sad.
If you have something DIY in mind, business related or not, please tell more about it Graz. If you don't wish to reveal it all and need a general opinion, tell or ask something. Here's the collaborators and audience to give feedback.
If you have something DIY in mind, business related or not, please tell more about it Graz. If you don't wish to reveal it all and need a general opinion, tell or ask something. Here's the collaborators and audience to give feedback.
Dave.[/QUOTE]
I did. Good family afternoon out!
***
Just seen your post Samppo!
On topic - this place certainly is the right one for a new "Perigee" project. Not Apogee. A group effort, group steered to a quality outcome. I have 3 camps in mind. I think it will be fun, and as soon as I have gotten something together will post it in it's own thread. Hopefully, good things and fun will ensue...
Take care - Graz
So, the "interesting DIY idea" has NOTHING to do with repair of original Apogee's. Finally something of note! I wish you would have mentioned that early on in our past email exchange.
And you're still not interested in helping Apogee owners with DIY repair of their speakers. Oh well.
Yes - I do, MRTW's. I have done this many times with a high percentage (80+) of home installation success. With the exception of Scintillas and FR's - people hate doing those! The others are good fun for most DIY owners, though certainly not for everybody. "DIY" bass repairs were optimistically rated at <30% positive - this positive percentile included the Installers on board from 2001-2007, and some unknown positive outcome anecdotes. Heavily counterbalanced with peoples responses ranging from miserable-irate some plainly accusing that I misled them/others regarding the complexity and viability of the task! At all times of the day or night, even 4am. Many of these first time fails were subsidised heavily for subsequent attempts at rectification, and several broke off communication - so I have no idea of the outcome. Some passed the task to pro speaker repairers, some of which got rather stressed over it. More explanation, more phone tuition - and most importantly the targets of client satisfaction and brand prestige were missed. The more I have learned, the more I see that moving to Installers-only-bass was the best choice for the brand. If the task was to repair the speakers to awesome performance levels, with a predictable outcome for clients then the Installer method is the best way, 9 years on the numbers massively bare this out. I am not going there again. The only people who would want to attempts a "home Installation" are wannabe manufacturers - that from experience too. I am not going there again.
I have spent about 1/3 of my life so far supporting the Apogee brand, and can say from experience my work time is better spent making speakers, and supporting Installers through restorations.
Graz, really, this type of DIY forum is not for you.
You've got your own forum where you can hold forth and moderate/delete with impunity. That's a much more appropriate venue for you.
Years before I took on Apogee I was making diy speakers and other audio kit for fun. Since I was 13 years old! I am not so detached from that, believe it or not. I like it in here, and would contribute more if you didn't take all my time up in here fighting and repeating yourself (therefore making me) ad nauseam!! And as far as I am aware people are free to visit more than one forum? As for mine - I am not in there much, and moderation is handled by Jon Oakey. I look in for work reasons, but mostly visit interest sites to learn more about peoples take on the world - my head rarely idles...
My point regarding the Apogee brand was simple. But let me re-state even more simply.
Back then a pair of Duetta's were affordable by the average guy. Now, they're not.
My first Apogee experience was in London, when I was 20, in 1986. A Scintilla System, Krell digital and Oracle/Air Tangent fronts, active Krell amps, Scintilla 1 ohms. £53,800. A year after my dad had bought his small one bed flat at the edge of London for £10k. So, from experience, Apogee's were for people that were a lot higher average than others
If selling speakers to Paul Allen is your objective, then you're on the right track.
I have to admit that I have just googled "Paul Allen", now I know who you mean. So far he is not a client, but I don't count anything out, if he has good ears and can cope with the social stigma of owning speakers cheaper than at least a dosen other high end brands on his doorstep (that you don't personally attack or heckle), he may just snap up a bargain pair!!!
And for others less affluent but Apogee minded - then perhaps consider picking up some cheap non-functional Calipers or Duettas and getting them refurbished to way better than new standards via the Installers, all told for a little over their mid-late 1980's dollar number! A fraction of the true 1980's value, more accessible to the regular person as you say. Assuming he can afford the essentials of high end source and amps all Apogee's have always required and reward so well with.
Now, please - let's absolutely, finally and unequivocally put this matter to bed before this bore us all to tears in here!!!
Have fun at the beach.
Dave.
I did. Good family afternoon out!
***
Just seen your post Samppo!
On topic - this place certainly is the right one for a new "Perigee" project. Not Apogee. A group effort, group steered to a quality outcome. I have 3 camps in mind. I think it will be fun, and as soon as I have gotten something together will post it in it's own thread. Hopefully, good things and fun will ensue...
Take care - Graz
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Graz,
The quoting is not necessary. It just makes the posts extremely long and even more tedious. I know what I said.
Clearly, when I'm referring to your lack of support to DIY'ers, I'm talking about bass panel issues. C'mon!
The primary repair issue with Apogee's is centered on that aspect. We're all aware you have installers to facilitate that work, but it's extremely expensive.
Alternative options are what's of interest! Isn't that crystal clear at this point?
If you remain disinterested in that direction, that's fine, but let's not impugn (as you have in the past) the efforts of users who do make attempts in that direction.
So the diy project is an offshoot of the Perigee project? Finally we're getting somewhere! Let's hear about it.
Dave.
The quoting is not necessary. It just makes the posts extremely long and even more tedious. I know what I said.
Clearly, when I'm referring to your lack of support to DIY'ers, I'm talking about bass panel issues. C'mon!
The primary repair issue with Apogee's is centered on that aspect. We're all aware you have installers to facilitate that work, but it's extremely expensive.
Alternative options are what's of interest! Isn't that crystal clear at this point?
If you remain disinterested in that direction, that's fine, but let's not impugn (as you have in the past) the efforts of users who do make attempts in that direction.
So the diy project is an offshoot of the Perigee project? Finally we're getting somewhere! Let's hear about it.
Dave.
Davey, give the guy some breathing room. Let him be. Do you bash Nelson for his pricing on Pass amps and too? His Perigee speakers are in same league as those amps, why not leave it be?
Look, I rolled the dice and silicone fixed the pair of Duetta Sigs I had and they sounded many time better than without the fix. Sold them to get a pair of ratty old Scinnies. The new Duetta Sigs owner still loves and listens to them. Are they as good as what they would had been had I sent them off to Graz' installers? Hell no (I will admit it), but the fix met all my financial and sensory objectives. Sensory objective was ONLY to remove buzz, and not make them perfect again like his new $10K - $20K speakers.
I would hate to think what would have happened had someone, like you, had ran Nelson Pass off this DIY site years ago. No cool Class A Amps like the F5, and Alephs that any bonehead like me can build. This place would be quite boring without the input of people like Nelson Pass and John Curl.
I very much would like to hear some new ideas that Graz has - Who knows - he may become the Nelson of Planers on this site....even if I didn't buy his ribbons or use his installers for my Duetta Sigs or Scinnies.
If his foray into the DIY planer world is productive to us, why stop him?
Look, I rolled the dice and silicone fixed the pair of Duetta Sigs I had and they sounded many time better than without the fix. Sold them to get a pair of ratty old Scinnies. The new Duetta Sigs owner still loves and listens to them. Are they as good as what they would had been had I sent them off to Graz' installers? Hell no (I will admit it), but the fix met all my financial and sensory objectives. Sensory objective was ONLY to remove buzz, and not make them perfect again like his new $10K - $20K speakers.
I would hate to think what would have happened had someone, like you, had ran Nelson Pass off this DIY site years ago. No cool Class A Amps like the F5, and Alephs that any bonehead like me can build. This place would be quite boring without the input of people like Nelson Pass and John Curl.
I very much would like to hear some new ideas that Graz has - Who knows - he may become the Nelson of Planers on this site....even if I didn't buy his ribbons or use his installers for my Duetta Sigs or Scinnies.
If his foray into the DIY planer world is productive to us, why stop him?