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Old 15th March 2013, 05:12 PM   #51
john65b is online now john65b  United States
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Hmmm, releasing the wooden clamps would release the ribbon tension, correct?
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Old 15th March 2013, 05:27 PM   #52
Davey is offline Davey  United States
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Yes, it could....even if you released the tension manually beforehand. You wouldn't gain much/anything though, since you still can't (easily) get to the foam on the underside of the membranes.

Be careful whatever you do. The speakers are not as robust as they might seem. Hairline cracks of the membrane are easy to generate (even on the outer perimeter of the clamps.) Twisting/flexing of the frame should be avoided.

Cheers,

Dave.
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Old 15th March 2013, 05:55 PM   #53
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They might over time.
I tried to take take them off and I few of them (the top ones) are still loose since 2000 from when I repaired it.
I couldn't seem to remove them completely for fear of ruining the diaphragm and completely loosing the tension.
As the diaphragm has been glued down as well.

Even the close up pictures that I do have do not show the mounting system in complete detail.
The are some other deeper holes with screws or cams or something in them that appear to be maybe the tensioning adjustment but I have not messed with them and I haven't seen in pictures as to if they are there or what they look like.
I read once that there are tensioning adjustments though.

I also have yet to see what and where this foam is that every one say's that it rots away causing the bass panels to rattle.
Some have said that it is on the back side of the diaphragm and can be replaced but there is no way how to even get in to the backside.
Unless I cut the MDF and lift the very heavy magnet plate out as a last resort.

The tensioning on mine has been relaxed along the vertical length quite a bit in some spots and it is these spots and the reason I think that is why mine rattle.

When I had to repair it, I tried but couldn't even remove the side sandwiching bars after I had removed all of the screws.
So I was lucky enough after analyzing it for a while to find the open loop with my VOM and a piece of wire confirmed that when it started to play again.

I wish I had the room to work on them but I don't at this moment.
If I can't get them to sound right I am going to just rebuild the bass panel Epsilon style with a rubber band surround on the perimeter of the diaphragm.
And/or sell them as ESL's are my thing now, But I would like to hear them play again for sure!!

jer
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Old 15th March 2013, 07:15 PM   #54
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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It Sucks....know other way of saying it!
From this one mans O-pine...
One of the Best Speaker on the Planet...I think it just the wate of the Magnets..an the press-board..if there moved an in time thay well buzz..an then you only hear the buzz on some things...but then you hear it all the time...tobad..only the stages i have had have never buzzed i know thay can...but out of 5 pr one tweeter was lost ...an i think it was me... i changed the wires that run up the side of the tweeters an could never get the right...but got a new pr of tweeter from Jason..in the 90s...for like $80. i was a dealer at the time.....good luck John .. great sound when the work!
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Old 16th March 2013, 02:52 PM   #55
taotao is offline taotao  Germany
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Hi,
since John65b promised me to change his signature, I'll write down what I did succesfully with my Apogees

I described my repair process in the older Apogee forum.
Unfortunately the thread is gone.
To bad I can't find a copy, even on my harddiscs.

Fact is, my Apogee Signatures had the buzz, it's the foil hitting the inner frame, giving this Kazoo like sound on certain frequencies. Not nice and it spoils the listening pleasure very much.

I managed to get rid of this distortion and mine still play nice. So I can say it's a log-time fix.

It's not expansive, but takes some time, patience and precaution (the foil is easily destroyed).

Anyway, here's what I did:
Main part is the silicone, it's not that stuff, you use in your kitchen or bathroom, it's rather very soft and is mixed from 2 components.
You'll need this:

http://www.amazon.de/Formenbau-Model...3443966&sr=8-3

Then you need this: Click the image to open in full size.

You'll need more than one syringe, because once the silicone is dried, you can throw it away.

Than you need silicone tubes, that you attach to the top of the syringe.
It should be very soft, because you'll sometimes slightly touch the membrane when you apply the silicone.

The point is to inject the mixture slowly into the gap between the foil and the frame. You have to push slowly. The silicone mixture feels like this golden honey. It flows into the rotten foam and dries there, keeping its elasticity.

For that, the speaker has to lie on the floor, so the gap (Foil <-> Frame) is paralleled with the floor.
You start on one side pushing the syringe and move slowly to the other side.
You have to apply the mixture along the entire gap.

Let it dry (I forget how long, but before you start, you should make a test mixture, to get a feeling for the stuff, than you'll see what the drying time is)
I think it should be OK after 2-3 hours.

If it's dried, you repeat the the same for the opposite gap; turn the speaker arround and push the silicone into the gap.

One tip: The gap is open at both sides, close it somehow, so the silicone won't flow out of the gap to your floor.

What I described, is for the front side of the speakers. The back side is more tricky to do 'cause it's not possible to do it that way.

I'll make a break now.

Later this evening, I'll continue to post....

Olaf
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Old 16th March 2013, 03:03 PM   #56
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Vary Cool......Thanks for your time...An info on Apogee Bass Panel Fix... Do you have any pix??
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Old 16th March 2013, 03:48 PM   #57
john65b is online now john65b  United States
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Viscous like Honey? It will flow, correct? You do all four gaps (top/bottom/sides?)

I have found a US contact for that company - Zhermack -

They are in NJ, and have sent them an email regarding their HT 33 Transparent (30 ShA) Silicone RTV. Yours indicates 33 ShA...is there a difference?

I appreciate the help, and will be ordering ASAP...

Also, If I put the speaker gap perpendicular to the floor (speaker standing on edge, gap down), is there a chance the silicone will flow and fill both sides of the gap from a front side injection, so you won't have to bother with the more difficult back side?

Is your syringe tip a needle or small hose?
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Last edited by john65b; 16th March 2013 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 16th March 2013, 03:53 PM   #58
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A one component flowable silicone can be found at the hardware store.
I have used this stuff repair speaker surrounds before and it runs like honey does.
It is mainly used has a windshield repair sealant for leaky windshield seals.

The stuff I have is from VersaChem and it is Part No.75009

Maybe something like this would work.
I had thought about some thing like this before and wondered if it would work.
As ESL's don't need any foam and are solid mounted to the frames.
I can't find any traces of foam in my speakers front or back.
Just the ones that the ribbons rested was all that was left when I got them back in 2010.

When I repaired them in 2000 there was no foam on the front of the bass panels then either but I never saw if there are ones in the back because I couldn't see too good through the black fabric covering and they weren't rattling at the time.

Thanks for the tip!!!!

jer

P.S. I found the foam.
it is only about a 1/4" wide strip that is sandwiched between the blocks and the diaphragm and has a bit of material cut off of the length of the block to accommodate the 1/16" thickness of the foam.
Nice thought of an idea but bad design.

Last edited by geraldfryjr; 16th March 2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 16th March 2013, 04:47 PM   #59
john65b is online now john65b  United States
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Quote:
Also, If I put the speaker gap perpendicular to the floor (speaker standing on edge, gap down), is there a chance the silicone will flow and fill both sides of the gap from a front side injection, so you won't have to bother with the more difficult back side?
OK, now that I think about it, this cannot be possible as the fluid is injected on one side of the diaphragm...you need to get to the other side...
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Old 16th March 2013, 05:20 PM   #60
Davey is offline Davey  United States
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Yep, you can't get to the backside from the frontside.


Gerald,

If you don't see any foam, you're not looking close enough. It's not very thick, but it's installed in a rabbet on all of the perimeter pieces on both front and back.

Olaf,

Thanks for posting the information. Much appreciated. They won't delete it here.

Cheers,

Dave.
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