Hybrid ESL bass, is there such a thing as a dipol kick in the chest?

[markusA]

It's been diskussed before but I'm not finding an answer to my thoughts?
A dynamic woofer dipol line array is supposedly the best match for a ESL panel concerning acoustic signature.

I was all fired up and ready to go... Then I heard a ribbon + H-frame with 3x15" woofers per side (i.e. 3 woofers per channel as in L/R channel) and no slam what so ever.
Hello! 6 15" woofers and no "ka-duff" in the chest? No kick what so ever?

So, I have to ask you guys... Is this always so with dipol bass?
How do you get that slam from a dipol? Is it even possible?

I'll choose a solid physical experience over seamless integration any day if I have to choose. However, I'd rather not have to choose. I want it all!
Is there a way to achieve both?

I'm sorry if you feel this has been discussed ad nauseum before but I'm trying to figure this out and to me it looks like dipol lovers doesn't care about the physical experience because no-one is actually talking about it? It's all about "how clean" the bass is and so on.
I'm not here to step on any toes but I'd really love to know?

[Legis]

With dipole it's also a question of the acoustic path difference (D). How wide and deep was the H-frame you heard?

I have 4x18 inch wooders per side in a 2m/6,7ft tall U-frame with 36cm/14inch deep frames. D is approx 70cm, similar to 140cm wide normal baffle or 70cm deep H-frame. I definitely find no lack of slam, but of course it would be a different beast if all drivers were put in enclosures.

[markusA]

I don't have the exact measurements but I can give you a guesstimate?
150x50x20 (HxWxD) [cm] Naturally the depth is specified for one cavity the total box depth would be 40cm or so? I might be underestimating the depth though, it could just as well be 2x25cm? (My memory isn't all that it should be.)

[awraudio]

Originally Posted by markusA

It's been diskussed before but I'm not finding an answer to my thoughts?
A dynamic woofer dipol line array is supposedly the best match for a ESL panel concerning acoustic signature.

I was all fired up and ready to go... Then I heard a ribbon + H-frame with 3x15" woofers per side (i.e. 3 woofers per channel as in L/R channel) and no slam what so ever.
Hello! 6 15" woofers and no "ka-duff" in the chest? No kick what so ever?

So, I have to ask you guys... Is this always so with dipol bass?
How do you get that slam from a dipol? Is it even possible?

I'll choose a solid physical experience over seamless integration any day if I have to choose. However, I'd rather not have to choose. I want it all!
Is there a way to achieve both?

I'm sorry if you feel this has been discussed ad nauseum before but I'm trying to figure this out and to me it looks like dipol lovers doesn't care about the physical experience because no-one is actually talking about it? It's all about "how clean" the bass is and so on.
I'm not here to step on any toes but I'd really love to know?

Martin Logan Summits (woofers disconnected) along side
of Magneplanar Tympani IV bass (modified) provide tremendous
bass slam. The Magneplanar bass panels have (1254 sq. inches
of surface area) that reproduce bass that is powerful, well
controlled and the transient response is awesome. Also room
acoustics play a very big role in getting great bass. Electrostatic
dipoles with a planar magnetic speaker like the Magneplanar
Tympanis are a match made for each other. They are both
light in mass, have dipole radiation, no box colorations, and
provide a huge sound-stage and great imaging.
A great recording for bass that is very powerful and quick is
Yim Hok-man (Poems of Thunder) Naxos World CD-76002-2

[SM7UYJ]

markusA: -Consider the room they played in, it was 6-8 times bigger than a normal room in a home!

That system in a normal living room has "brown note potential".

My system measures good output down to 35-40Hz in my 30m^2 living room - in Gothenbourg the room just sucked up all bass output!

Roger

[markusA]

SM7UYJ> I hear you, the rooms were/are terrible. It's just that every time I hear a dipole bass it's the same story, well articulated but no punch. I thought that set-up would be THE ONE to once and for all prove that dipole bass rock. I'd love to hear it in a better room but I don't know anyone with such beasts?
Loved your panels though, too bad you were having trouble with arcing.

avraudio>Interesting match.
I listened to the CLX just this week and felt the bass was lacking.

It's great to hear that my impressions were wrong, I just wish I could listen to a good system before spending the $$$. It's such a nerve wrecking place to be.
"People on the internet says it's great... let's spend $1000-$2000 to find out."

So, now that we have established I was wrong.
(Yes, it's one of those rare occations where being wrong is a good thing.)
What will I need to get that solid "ka-duff" in the chest?

[awraudio]

Originally Posted by markusA

SM7UYJ> I hear you, the rooms were/are terrible. It's just that every time I hear a dipole bass it's the same story, well articulated but no punch. I thought that set-up would be THE ONE to once and for all prove that dipole bass rock. I'd love to hear it in a better room but I don't know anyone with such beasts?
Loved your panels though, too bad you were having trouble with arcing.

avraudio>Interesting match.
I listened to the CLX just this week and felt the bass was lacking.

The combo of Martin Logan Summits and the Magneplanar
Tympani IV bass panels is better than the CLX, which I
agree is lacking in the lower bass. This system is so
coherent, transparent and imaging that is wonderful. Combining this
with a center channel Martin Logan Logos and 8 surround
speakers makes for a great listening experience.

It's great to hear that my impressions were wrong, I just wish I could listen to a good system before spending the $$$. It's such a nerve wrecking place to be.
"People on the internet says it's great... let's spend $1000-$2000 to find out."

So, now that we have established I was wrong.
(Yes, it's one of those rare occations where being wrong is a good thing.)
What will I need to get that solid "ka-duff" in the chest?

[JAMESBOS]

With my system all DIY, underfloor loaded at the front, IB's on the sides, and bailey transmission lines at the rear. Playing the DVD of the film contact, the bass was awesome .The floorboards moved thro' your feet.But I couldn't continue playing at this volume because the neighbours complained about plates moving on their shelves. This in a room 13' x 16'. I also use 13 DIY full range planar speakers in the same room with my new AV Receiver. 9 of them 60 x 40 cms using neos. 2 4' x 2' using ferrites and 2 2' x 2' using ferrites. The small neo ones are hanging from the ceiling and the other 4 are on the floor at the front. The bass is clean and tight and goes down to 20 Hz. I daren't turn the volume up too much because of the neighbours. I will have to win the lottery and move house to do so!! Wish me luck.

[markusA]

I would have to win the lottery just to get what you have Henry. To keep things real I'm aiming for a traditional 2-way setup, possibly a sub as well.
Since I'm building a hybrid ESL I expect the X-over to happen somewhere in the 300Hz vicinity.
As we're talking dipole bass now I have a finite number of options, IB, OB, U- or H- frame or maybe a ripole?
IB is not an option, nor does OB seem too likely.
Ripole, U- and H- frames can be made to fit a living room so these will probably be my options unless I'm forgetting something? Let's save the planar bass for later.

Any suggestions on the minimum requirements to get the slam I'm talking about?
1x15" woofer or 4x18"? Maybe a 6x6.5" or 6x8" line array?
Since I started the thread doubting it was possible in the first place I really have no clue what I need to make it happen?

[geraldfryjr]

This is some thing that I plan on experimenting with through the summer.
I have 6 x 8" radio shack subs left that are in working order.

I simulated a 3 driver ported cabinet with an electronic assisted filter in Winlsd.
It shows that with the two cabinets should produced inexcess of 115db to 118db.
It is designed with a minimal grouped delay so they should be quite punchy and not muddy and flat down to 25hz.

I will also try an H-Dipole configuration aswell to compare to using a box of the same dimensions of 20" to 24" deep.
Right now I have box already cut that will fit 2 drivers so that is where I will start.

Right now my setup produces that punch quite well as it has alot of surface area and is using the corners of the room has a type of horn system with 2 10" drivers facing into the corner.
So far I have 4 X 10's ,4 X 12's and 2 X 8's ,the system is ruler flat from 1200hz down 20hz with a slight hump at 35hz.

All Running off of one crown dc300a ,it is under powered as the crown is the only good amp that I have running at the moment,but, it does rock!

All of the tweeters and midranges are blown so all of the highs come from the little cabinets on top in the picture.
So the imaging is quite smeared until I get the esl's back up and running.

Back in the day I had a U-frame with 6 X 6.5" with RS polypropelene drivers that sat on top of 3.5' tall cabinet that had a 18" RS sub in it that was my bass guitar rig.

That system was very punchy and it felt like some one just decked you when you hit the all of the strings at once.

That 6 X 6.5" was incredible and I'm sure that because it sitting up high rather than on the floor ,had alot to do with it, as it coupled to the room very well as does my current system.
Not to mention that it held its own during outside gigs as it was quite loud.
A ran it with an Ampeg V4-B and a Sunn concert slave amp,again alot of power.

Anyway I hope that gives you some kind of idea of how to get that slam.
I will find out soon how it is going to be with the esl's.
I'm sure that I probably won't get that full dipole sound as this room is to narrow.
I have already found that out with my appoge's ,but at least I will get that awsome slam that you are seeking ,aswell as, the super clarity from 300hz on up as we pretty much have the same goals.

Cheers! jer