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Old 20th February 2011, 06:08 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: melbourne
Default subs for esl panels

g,day all
i have some brand new ml request panels and am wanting to use them for a project

im thinking of making some frames the same as the ml cls and then incorporating some subs into the mix

the original request crosses to its bass driver at 125hz so this would be my min crossover setting

my questions are
1/ what style of sub would blend best ,im thinking ib ?

2/ can i get away with just subs or will i have to run some mid bass drivers in between the panels and subs ?

also i already have 4x beta 15" bass drivers if these would be any use

thanks in advance for any help/advice

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Old 21st February 2011, 12:28 PM   #2
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Location: Savannah, GA
Whatever woofers you add must play cleanly for at least one octave above the crossover frequency and most subs are too heavy and slow to play that high cleanly. I think you would need a small woofer (10" max) to bridge the gap. Also, if you cross the panels over that low, you would want to use a very steep crossover slope, not less than 24db/oct and 48 would be better still--- that way, you get the woofer out of the midrange.
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Old 21st February 2011, 02:46 PM   #3
expert in tautology
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Location: New York State USA
If you keep the Qts of the woofer system lowish you'll likely get the "fast" sound to match the ESLs... although that's not always going to work... To get to 125hz you can use any size driver, pretty much. Getting the woofer OUT of the picture is harder to do, and that's "advanced" xover territory. But the suggestion just made to go high slope is not a bad one... The DF of the amp running the woofer will also play a role.

Box designs that use horns, ports, bandpass etc can be problematic in as much as there is a propagation delay between the ESL and the secondary woofer output (like a BP box or port). How much of an issue that is depends on a number of factors including how low in freq it appears and how often you hear it in the music... so many folks have decided on the sealed box as a result.

With the sealed box, the tendency is to try to keep the box small, so that implies EQ added, and then again you need to consider the Qts of the woofer system, the F3 point you want to achieve and IF you use EQ on the bottom remember that the Qts is equal to the effect of the EQ upon the inherent Qts, not just the Qts of the woofer in the box! It's the final filter (curve).

But yeah, it can work fine. No midbass drivers required if ur at 125Hz.

Bottom line, try it, "if it sounds good, it is good". (Count Basie said that)

_-_-bear -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- every once in a while I say something that makes sense... ]
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Old 21st February 2011, 03:49 PM   #4
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Stay away from sealed enclosures, they will never mate well with a dipole panel, best is with rear firing ports.
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Old 21st February 2011, 07:17 PM   #5
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Location: melbourne

thanks for the help so far guys , heaps to think about

the design of the request is sealed ,low q and 12" and the ones i have heard work very well (to my taste) so i think that crossing to good 15" s would be fine as its only 2" bigger than what ml chose to use

i,m pretty keen on infinite baffle subs ,what do you guys think of these combined with esl ,or as an alternative maybe ob using the 15" eminence betas i have ?

cheers sheafer
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Old 21st February 2011, 10:41 PM   #6
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well you can see the "best" on my website... but that's only imho.

IB is fine, as long as it is IB... which then leaves the question where will you place them... if they are not in the proper place WRT the main panels the time difference will create a problem.

_-_-bear -- Btw, I don't actually know anything, FYI -- every once in a while I say something that makes sense... ]
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Old 22nd February 2011, 07:44 AM   #7
Calvin is online now Calvin  Germany
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Stay away from sealed enclosures, they will never mate well with a dipole panel, best is with rear firing ports.
Thats not backed up, neither by theory nor praxis. Ported systems increase group delay and spoil transient response. Provided that ported means some kind of cabinet with dedicated ports and not any open-baffle/frame that also may radiate sounds to the backside.
A bass (i.e. any LS) may be represented in a first approximation by an analogy to an electrical filter. As with any filter the higher its order, i.e the steeper its flanks, the worse the response in the time domain.
Low order filters (1st and 2nd order -->6dB-12dB/oct) would be the best in this regard. Open baffle/dipoles, followed by closed boxes represent this class.
BassReflex, Transmissionline, Bandpass (3rd to 6th order --> 18-36dB/oct) etc. are of higher order since their functioning relies on resonator effects.
Their only advantage is increased efficiency, which we mostly donīt need with ESLs. If we need it, multiples of the low-order case would be the way to go. Multiple dipoles or CBs can offer additional advantages as described in a couple of other threads in DIY-Audio.


Last edited by Calvin; 22nd February 2011 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 22nd February 2011, 09:10 AM   #8
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Location: Budapest, Hungary
Some interesting solutions:

Dipole Woofer

Gradient: SW-S & SW-D
(Gradient: SW-63 & HE Crossover
Gradient: SW-57 subwoofer)
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Old 22nd February 2011, 05:58 PM   #9
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The ability to adjust frequency, phase and volume is very important in your crossover network, to 'dial-in' the final integration between woofers and panels. I'm using a cheapo Dayton 10" self-powered woofer with my Acoustats (crossed-over at about 80 Hz), but it took me literally months of knob-twiddling on the built-in crossover to get the integration as seamless as I wanted. I found the position of the phase control to be particularly important.
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Old 23rd February 2011, 12:24 AM   #10
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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Food for thought:
THE AUDIO ANNEX - View topic - Subwoofer as a statement piece in the room
Click the image to open in full size.
Not for everyone, but this huge dual 12" tapped horn from Danley Sound Labs rocks my home theater. It is veneered in Macassar ebony.
In my opinion:

1. Seal bass is better tan ported, even for M/L stats.

2. Crossover going into the 500hz midrange is fine, adds some meat to the bones to the normally light or thin stat sound.

The original M/L Aerius did both these things, and I still like it over it's larger more expensive brothers.

One person has mated M/L stats (by-passed the woofers) to older larger Magnepan tympani panels which provide the bass. I do think they are on the right track.
Tubes and Martin Logan's

Last edited by kach22i; 23rd February 2011 at 12:28 AM.
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