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Old 29th January 2013, 01:30 PM   #511
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Originally Posted by john65b View Post
I tried my ICEPowers (250ASP - 250A, and a pair of 1000ASP Monoblocks) I did not like them as much on my Model 3 as with a good as a high power Class AB. I did like the Acoustat TNT200 better than the ICEpower, and the Innersound (Sanders) ESL amp best.
The Levinson ML-3 you had and I had delivered Voltage and Current just wat an Acoustat needs!
Iīve had the TNT-200 also but the ML-3 drove them to great heights.

Last edited by RobertS61; 29th January 2013 at 01:32 PM. Reason: My bad English
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:24 PM   #512
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Bazukas - why not try the test? If your pulling 20+ Volts from your amp to get to the highest listening levels , would you be convinced?

Sure he trying to sell amps, and I also thought it was crazy, until I did the test myself.



BrianEno (Always wanted to ask - are you THE Brian Eno?) I never got to trying the ML-3 on the Acoustat - sold them before getting the Acoustats...it was a good amp...would have loved to hear them together....
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Last edited by john65b; 29th January 2013 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:51 PM   #513
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BrianEno (Always wanted to ask - are you THE Brian Eno?) I never got to trying the ML-3 on the Acoustat - sold them before getting the Acoustats...it was a good amp...would have loved to hear them together....
No, I just picked an alias I liked and could remember.
My understanding of the English language gives it away immediately...
Not the right choice, I should change it.

The ML-3 surfaces so now and the then in the States for $2k. It's not so outrageously expensive like the LNP-2, ML-7(a) and ML6 (ab).
TAS (read Harry Pearson and John Nork both Audio Research aficionados) did not like it and quarelled a lot with Mark Levinson the man in those days starting with the ML-1 preamp. Stereophile the other subjective audio-magazine at that time never tested any MLAS (ML series) product till 1986 when J. Gordon Holt reviewed the ML-7a already produced under Madrigal banner. Just if the Mark Levinson brand didn't exist in from 1973 till 1985.
So the ML-3 got no favorable press in the US (apart from the Audio magazine ) but Mark stated at that time that Sprague could not produce enough of those big blue 1 litre large can capacitors to fulfil the demand for this amp.
So there must be plenty around and I liked the ML-3 on my Acoustats although my current ML-2's are better.
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:35 PM   #514
Bazukaz is offline Bazukaz  Lithuania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john65b View Post
Bazukas - why not try the test? If your pulling 20+ Volts from your amp to get to the highest listening levels , would you be convinced?

Sure he trying to sell amps, and I also thought it was crazy, until I did the test myself.



BrianEno (Always wanted to ask - are you THE Brian Eno?) I never got to trying the ML-3 on the Acoustat - sold them before getting the Acoustats...it was a good amp...would have loved to hear them together....
Hi,

I have done similar tests in a bit different way. Yes my system is still listenable with peaks@20Vrms but that's damn loud and not comfortable at all. The room is about 15m^2, listening distance ~2-3 meters and sensitivity ~81-82db/2.83V.
Normally I am listening at only a small fraction of max. output.

A lot depends on the recording material. Some are compressed and sound much louder than others. Recordings with high dynamic range have low overall SPL level but very high peaks.
Have you tested with different music styles etc.? I bet the figures will be quite different.

BTW What is the sensitivity of your speakers and listening distance?

Regards.
Lukas.
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:45 PM   #515
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Ok, believe it or not, my Sanders 10c are supposedly in the 90's (the ESL) and does not equate with the power requirements Roger was referring to. I have not reconciled that with him.

Yes. I agree that if your not listening at levels requiring 20v, you will never need that power requirement, but its nice to know my Innersound ESL amp doesn't clip at my highest listening level...

That leads me to BrianEno's ML-2 - honestly, can they drive the Acoustats to loud levels? Do you clip before you get to your loudest levels?
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Old 29th January 2013, 04:11 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by john65b View Post
That leads me to BrianEno's ML-2 - honestly, can they drive the Acoustats to loud levels? Do you clip before you get to your loudest levels?
Although subjective I never feel the need to play at levels where the ML-2īs clip. The character of the sound just doesnīt change when turning down the volume. But I wouldnīt call them adjusted when you want to play at levels where you canīt have a conversation at one feet apart.
My point is that my Japanese Yamaha M2 amp which delivers 240 watts at 8 Ohm and almost 400 Watts at 4 Ohm canīt keep up with the ML-2īs when driving my Acoustats. Even the Denon POA-8000īs monoblocks failed on the load these speakers present.
With the big Krell KMA-200īs ,ML-3 and Rowland 7īs I never experienced any clipping at all, with Thresholds SA/1īs I did at very loud levels.

So to be honest I should have a clean 35 Volts to be on the safe side but I like the sound of the ML-2īs so much that I accept the possible clipping when playing very loud.

I could of course bridge two ML-2īs for 34 Volts but a AC draw of 1.6 kWatts continuously the added space and heat makes me reluctant.
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Old 29th January 2013, 04:27 PM   #517
Bazukaz is offline Bazukaz  Lithuania
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Originally Posted by john65b View Post
Ok, believe it or not, my Sanders 10c are supposedly in the 90's (the ESL) and does not equate with the power requirements Roger was referring to. I have not reconciled that with him.

Yes. I agree that if your not listening at levels requiring 20v, you will never need that power requirement, but its nice to know my Innersound ESL amp doesn't clip at my highest listening level...

That leads me to BrianEno's ML-2 - honestly, can they drive the Acoustats to loud levels? Do you clip before you get to your loudest levels?
Yes I can get to clipping but normally I don't listen to that level.
And I cannot put a bigger amp because step up transformers will start to saturate. A sub is seemingly a simple option but in practice difficult to integrate and is currently unused.

It would be interesting to measure sanders 10C , unfortunately I can't do so.
There are many ways in which sensitivity can be elevated(Lets say its taken at some peaking spot) or is measured at 4meters and recalculated back comparing to a cone speaker(6db gain for free : ) ). I am a bit suspicious about sanders stated 94db efficiency. However if the panel is a flat directional non-segmented ESL then quite high efficiency is possible at higher frequencies, with a serious dip in low mid-range presumably corrected via DSP.
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Old 31st January 2013, 07:43 AM   #518
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Mr Acoustat, I beg you to remember some of us live in the workaday world, have real budgets, and can only afford so much. Just because I don't have schmancy amp this or that or granite bases and iron frames on my speakers, doesn't mean I dont enjoy this hobby one bit less than you. I came here to discuss getting the most out of my 20 some odd year 400 dollar speakers that I bought because they were what I could afford! I joined diy audio because you're here and others much more knowledgeable than I also. I was hoping to discover some inexpensive ways to improve my system and maybe learn a little more about the actual electronics making up my components. I resent your dismissive and disrespectful tone toward my choice of amplifiers based on their cost. They're damn fine amps for the price, a way for me to enjoy music on a higher level on my budget, and you can take your overpriced snob gear and shove it where the sun doesn't shine if you are going to scoff at those of us unfortunate enough not to be able to afford this HOBBY at your level. I could be wrong, but I'll bet you have never even heard Emotiva XPA-1 amps. If you haven't, I suggest you look at their multiple published pages of specs and examine their build quality, order some for a 30 day FREE trial listen to them, and then tell me they're not worth every penny of their price!
Hi Meat, sorry if you where offended that was not my intention.
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Old 31st January 2013, 08:16 AM   #519
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Originally Posted by Bazukaz View Post
Yes I can get to clipping but normally I don't listen to that level.
And I cannot put a bigger amp because step up transformers will start to saturate. A sub is seemingly a simple option but in practice difficult to integrate and is currently unused.
Buy a 6kVA Variac here: Philips
You can connect two Krell KRS-200 amps sucking 14 amps all of the time
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Old 11th February 2013, 03:18 AM   #520
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Hello,
I did a dumb thing and sold a pair or 1+1 with a MK121-C interface due to a moderate degree of arching. They still sounded great. Then I bought another pair of 1+1s with MK 131C interface. The panels are in excellent condition but I have learned (here) that these do not run full range. Can the MK131-C interface be made to run full range or do I need to seek a 121-C interface? Are the connections the same? Does anyone have them. Thank you for any help.
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