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Old 28th January 2013, 10:57 PM   #501
timon59 is offline timon59  Canada
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here's a question: can you run 1+1's with the servo amps? Thanks.
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Old 29th January 2013, 12:34 AM   #502
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Meat (sorry), with all due respect, I think you misunderstood what MrAcoustat was saying. These speakers (actually all ESL speakers, except maybe Quads) are very finicky to get sound right, and there are many amps (regardless of price) that don't bring out the best of these speakers. I have noticed this firsthand, and can agree, these speakers really can bring some amps to their knees.

It is, after all, exactly why Jim Strickland (founder of Acoustat) designed the Acoustat TNT amp specifically to drive these speakers.

The TNT amp is a great ESL amp by the way - they may sound goofy on other speakers, but it is specifically designed to deal with the crazy impedance of an ESL speaker.

There is a great white paper from Roger Sanders (sanderssoundsystems.com) that explains why it takes a special amp to drive ESLs. It takes lots of Voltage (of course many disagree) to drive them.

I was a bit skeptical of why so much voltage is needed, until I did a little test - you can find it here on this site - DIYAudio memmber Pano put it together - shows haw many volts your speakers are requiring to be at a loud listening level...

A Test. How much Voltage (power) do your speakers need?

You see that there are just of few of poll responders that indicated they needed over 20V, and I bet they are all ESL speakers.

I am at post #783. My ESLs were requiring 26V to be at the level I will most likely never eclipse, which was an amp that had 104V peak, and 73V RMS - giving am amp that has the +/- 90 V rails - that 900 watts @4 ohms! This is exactly what Jim is saying. ESLs need VOLTAGE!!!

I trust that you will see you need that kind of power (voltage) to drive the Acoustats, so your amp does not clip. Your Emotiva just may handle it...why not try it out? Take the test with both your ESLs and then same test and same amp/pre/source on a conventional cone speaker - you will really be surprised at the results - really kinda cool!

I actually would venture a request that all Acoustat lovers try the test to see what kinda voltage demands your Acoustat speakers are placing on your amp to sound best (not clip), and to prove, as Roger says, an amp with puny +/- 30v rails or less simply can't do the job....
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Last edited by john65b; 29th January 2013 at 12:59 AM.
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Old 29th January 2013, 02:43 AM   #503
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JohnB, I fully agree with your assumption on voltage, I myself found that amps with high rail voltages worked better on all models of acoustats that I've owned. Most won't agree, but each to their own. My home built amps run 90V rails with 1000VA trafos 66000uf per channel and sound excellent on my Acoustats.
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:18 AM   #504
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Yup, I used to think Current was the end all - maybe on conventional speakers and planars, but not on ESLs...they sound more...ALIVE!

Delta - what DIY amp design are you using? Class AB? I was going to do an ESP P101, but max rail voltage was only 70V max (a great amp btw)
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Old 29th January 2013, 03:49 AM   #505
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John, Mine are built on B&O icepower ClassD, I love them
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Old 29th January 2013, 06:24 AM   #506
ktuuri is offline ktuuri  Canada
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Quote:
here's a question: can you run 1+1's with the servo amps? Thanks.
I have not tried it myself, but have been told by some that you can run the Servo amps on them.
One fellow said he tried both and preferred the interface with the 1+1 instead of the Servo's.
But then, like mine, alot of the Servo amps have been upgraded, so that may not hold true all the time.

But hears some food for thought: The interfaces have different taps that one can switch over depending on how many panels one is running. The Servo amps do not have different taps, so maybe that is what can make the difference. ?

I moved to Calgary a few months ago and I know Moray James is around this neck of the woods, and he has 1+1. Maybe sometime in the future we can try my Servo amps on his 1+1's and we can see how they sound!! :O)
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Old 29th January 2013, 06:38 AM   #507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timon59 View Post
here's a question: can you run 1+1's with the servo amps? Thanks.
The Servos will definitely work with a 1+1, although perhaps not as well as with the 3 or 4 panel, single height models they were originally sold with. I have read forum posts (can't remember if it was here or somewhere else) of people using them together successfully. The Servos have some EQ circuitry which allows the speakers to be closer to the wall behind them than the interfaces allow, generally 3 feet is considered the ideal distance (which has been borne out in my experience) while with the interfaces they like to be more like 4-5 feet out.
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Old 29th January 2013, 11:38 AM   #508
john65b is offline john65b  United States
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Quote:
John, Mine are built on B&O icepower ClassD, I love them
I tried my ICEPowers (250ASP - 250A, and a pair of 1000ASP Monoblocks) I did not like them as much on my Model 3 as with a good as a high power Class AB. I did like the Acoustat TNT200 better than the ICEpower, and the Innersound (Sanders) ESL amp best.
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Old 29th January 2013, 12:17 PM   #509
Bazukaz is offline Bazukaz  Lithuania
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john65b View Post
Meat (sorry), with all due respect, I think you misunderstood what MrAcoustat was saying. These speakers (actually all ESL speakers, except maybe Quads) are very finicky to get sound right, and there are many amps (regardless of price) that don't bring out the best of these speakers. I have noticed this firsthand, and can agree, these speakers really can bring some amps to their knees.

It is, after all, exactly why Jim Strickland (founder of Acoustat) designed the Acoustat TNT amp specifically to drive these speakers.

The TNT amp is a great ESL amp by the way - they may sound goofy on other speakers, but it is specifically designed to deal with the crazy impedance of an ESL speaker.

There is a great white paper from Roger Sanders (sanderssoundsystems.com) that explains why it takes a special amp to drive ESLs. It takes lots of Voltage (of course many disagree) to drive them.

I was a bit skeptical of why so much voltage is needed, until I did a little test - you can find it here on this site - DIYAudio memmber Pano put it together - shows haw many volts your speakers are requiring to be at a loud listening level...

A Test. How much Voltage (power) do your speakers need?

You see that there are just of few of poll responders that indicated they needed over 20V, and I bet they are all ESL speakers.

I am at post #783. My ESLs were requiring 26V to be at the level I will most likely never eclipse, which was an amp that had 104V peak, and 73V RMS - giving am amp that has the +/- 90 V rails - that 900 watts @4 ohms! This is exactly what Jim is saying. ESLs need VOLTAGE!!!

I trust that you will see you need that kind of power (voltage) to drive the Acoustats, so your amp does not clip. Your Emotiva just may handle it...why not try it out? Take the test with both your ESLs and then same test and same amp/pre/source on a conventional cone speaker - you will really be surprised at the results - really kinda cool!

I actually would venture a request that all Acoustat lovers try the test to see what kinda voltage demands your Acoustat speakers are placing on your amp to sound best (not clip), and to prove, as Roger says, an amp with puny +/- 30v rails or less simply can't do the job....
Sorry to say - I am not trying to insult anyone, but the sanders paper about their amplifiers looks like an advertising crap. It gives an impression that amplifier that's not rated at around 100V and hundreds of amps should sound bad.
But where we have any measurements confirming most of conventional amps go into current clipping while playing music and sounds into ESL load ?
Yes the impedance drops considerably with frequency but so drops the average and peak output voltage. At 20 kHz peaks are 10-20db lower with most of music content.
Also although statements like "power amplifier can add over $100 per month to their electric bill" are true in some rare cases its very, very unusual.

A lot of ESLs have comparable efficiency to HiFi cone based systems(let's say, quads etc.).
So there is no understandable argument why it should need more voltage.
Furthermore, with a 73Vrms amp its easy to bring stepup transformer into saturation if its not designed for that voltage and in addition to poor sound quality its possible to do damage to panels or something else.
I cannot agree that a very high voltage & current amplifier is necessary or even recommended in most of cases.

Regards,
Lukas.
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Old 29th January 2013, 12:25 PM   #510
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Wink Medium power great result

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meat Popsicle View Post
Mr Acoustat, I beg you to remember some of us live in the workaday world, have real budgets, and can only afford so much. Just because I don't have schmancy amp this or that or granite bases and iron frames on my speakers, doesn't mean I dont enjoy this hobby one bit less than you. I came here to discuss getting the most out of my 20 some odd year 400 dollar speakers that I bought because they were what I could afford! I joined diy audio because you're here and others much more knowledgeable than I also. I was hoping to discover some inexpensive ways to improve my system and maybe learn a little more about the actual electronics making up my components. I resent your dismissive and disrespectful tone toward my choice of amplifiers based on their cost. They're damn fine amps for the price, a way for me to enjoy music on a higher level on my budget, and you can take your overpriced snob gear and shove it where the sun doesn't shine if you are going to scoff at those of us unfortunate enough not to be able to afford this HOBBY at your level. I could be wrong, but I'll bet you have never even heard Emotiva XPA-1 amps. If you haven't, I suggest you look at their multiple published pages of specs and examine their build quality, order some for a 30 day FREE trial listen to them, and then tell me they're not worth every penny of their price!
You´re of course right here.
But what Mr. Acoustat tries to point out is that Acoustat Electrostatics are pretty sensitive about the electronics that drive them.
As said before powerratings are not the sole factor upon which you can assess a valid judgement.
There are some good secondhand amps that would drive them properly and won´t cost a fortune:
Acoustat´s TNT-200 of course, Krell KSA-50, Levinson ML-11 (better then the Bryston 4B I had) a Sumo Nine (and Nine plus), Threshold /200, S/300 and SA/3 to mention a few.
The all drove my Acoustats fine and because you live in the States wre they make those amps you can get them for a steal compared to the prices they demand over her in Europe.
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