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Old 11th July 2003, 12:06 AM   #11
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
is this a first, Sy?
Nope.

There's nothing wrong, and maybe a lot right, with the idea of using a line array of 4 inchers to cover all but the lowest two octaves, then hand over to a big dipole sub for the very bottom.
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Old 11th July 2003, 12:45 AM   #12
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Bas:

Is that 500 Hz all the way down to 30 Hz or so?

Or do you plan on crossing over to a subwoofer at 100 Hz or so?

You might want to consider crossing over to an enclosed subwoofer, thereby freeing the the magnetic woofer from large cone excursions, rendering the midbass and midrange much clearer and with much lower Intermoduolation Distortion.
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Old 11th July 2003, 07:05 AM   #13
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Thanks for all the very usefull info so far!!

kelticwizard...down to 100hz is fine...can always use a subwoofer later....especially if that helps getting them to integrate with the esl...

I Would love to prove my local electronics shop owner wrong! He said you can never make get your conventional drivers to integrate well with your esl's

how about a line array of jordan drivers down to 100hz??

Cheers,
Bas

[Edit] By the way...my budget restraints have just gone out the window...would be willing to spend around 300$ per channel....

I'd better start saving...
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Old 11th July 2003, 08:44 AM   #14
7V is offline 7V  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bas Horneman
By the way...my budget restraints have just gone out the window...would be willing to spend around 300$ per channel....

I'd better start saving...
Good.

I must admit that I never really understand why so many DIYers put so much time, energy and skill into making speakers that are often every bit as well finished as commercial products and designed with more skill than many too, but then use the cheapest components, drivers, etc.

Come on guys. You make speakers that are the equivalent of commercial products costing several times more. Save before you skimp.

End of rant.

Now, in this case Bas, I think you've got a great project - electrostatics with dipole bass, mmmmm. I really look forward to hearing how these turn out. In fact, I would love to visit once they're completed.

One thing... the electrostatics will go down to 500Hz. What are the consequences of taking them to say 400Hz? Does the size increase or is there more? I think that the lower you can go the better (keep the crossover point as far down the mid-range as you can).

Steve
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Old 11th July 2003, 09:23 AM   #15
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Quote:
One thing... the electrostatics will go down to 500Hz. What are the consequences of taking them to say 400Hz? Does the size increase or is there more? I think that the lower you can go the better (keep the crossover point as far down the mid-range as you can).
Hallo Steve,

The electrostatics are being built by another diyaudio member :
Audiofanatic.

He has built quite a few esl's. And I believe recently heard just such an esl..and liked what he heard ...hence the 500hz limit.

He is building them as part of a deal we made. So I don't want to influence him now one way or the other. So the 500Hz is cast in stone. The big advantage of such a narrow esl is that it act's more like a point source that your average esl.

You are always welcome to visit once they are finished! Maybe Dhaen can bring his amps then! Can you carry them John?

Cheers,
Bas
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Old 11th July 2003, 09:29 AM   #16
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I'd also suggest dipoles, and agree that you should get the best drivers you can.

With the dipoles you will probably need multiples per side, depending on your ultimate volume needs.

I think the Seas L22 or even better the L26 would be a good choice.

You will need to EQ for the dipole roll-off.


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Old 11th July 2003, 09:51 AM   #17
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Seas L22 or even better the L26
Mmm these are so new...dutch diy shops have not listed them yet..

Prices?

Quote:
You will need to EQ for the dipole roll-off.
Do I really need that? Is that standard for dipoles?

Was hoping to just use a simple tube based active crossover ...

Cheers,
Bas
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Old 11th July 2003, 11:05 AM   #18
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You can find details on the Seas website or at Madisound.

Dipoles roll off at 6dB per octave below a certain point which is related to the width of the baffle, so you need to boost them by the same amount.

This is why you need drivers with as much xmax as possible, and most likely multiple drivers.

The best source for info is www.linkwitzlab.com, although the information can be a little overwhelming.

This site has more basic info:

http://www.diysubwoofers.org/dipole/


Steve
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Old 11th July 2003, 11:11 AM   #19
argo is offline argo  Estonia
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Default Re: Best 500Hz and down woofer for pairing with ESL?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bas Horneman
Hi

I'm looking for suggestions for a 500Hz and down woofer that would lend itself for pairing with a homemade ESL.

Crossover will be active (Steve Bench Crossover on Gary Kaufman Circuit boards) (Maybe more info than you need ...but there you have it)

Earthquake inducing woofers are not the priority. Musicality and speed plus synergy with esl's are prio's.

My thinking was of woofers that are not at all known for gutwrenching bass but for neutrality Vifa P13WH 00-8.

ESL will be homebrew (Wire stator type) approx 100cm high 13cm wide powered by 4watt SE valve amp and woofer will be powered by Pioneer A-400 SS.

Budget : Around 100 Euro/Dollar per channel.

Woofers with cabinet plans are obviously preferred. (Proven designs as well) Can anyone point me to something like that?

TIA,
Bas
My vote would go for Alcone AC 10 HE 10" - aluminium driver with usable freg. range from 35 -1000Hz, very "fast", accurate and can go reasonably low. Sealed (with apr. 4dB bass boost at 40Hz) is preferred to vented alignment IMO. Some German web pages should have other recommended tuning fregs. and alignments as well.
I use a pair of them as subs, crossed at 100Hz 2nd order (but for Xover at 500Hz you need at least 4th order) with my sats consisting Jordans and Esg2 ribbons and they seem to integrate very ell with the "speed" of the sats.
http://www.bkelec.com/Hi-Fi/Alcone%2010-he.htm


argo
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Old 11th July 2003, 09:27 PM   #20
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Thanks for the suggestions....so far...

Don't be shy you all..keep them coming..

I'm thinking...dipoles sound like a great idea but need a lot more "extra's" like eq..

Using a couple of small ones....in a line array sounds like a great I dea as well...so this idea I would like to stick to......but I'm not entirely convinced about the dipole concept yet. How about just one little driver firing backwards...and say 4 forward...creating just a little bit of that "diffuse" or dipole effect? A hybrid dipole line array for a hybrid speaker..hell good design is all about compromise is it not?

Cheers,
Bas
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