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Old 8th July 2003, 02:01 PM   #11
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"Marcel, dynamic bass drivers are mixed with ES panels due to size constraints. i.e huge pannels would be required to produce low notes which is generally not feasible. Please correct me."

This is correct. Full-range electrostatics can still fit in the average living room, but they are certainly not small.

"But on the other end of the frequency scale, the same doesn't apply I assume. Since the panels are smaller then, does this not maintain the same ratio to 'effectively operate directly on the air'? Or have i just completely left the density of air out of the equation... hmmm (I should really go to sleep)"

According to a colleague of mine who is designing and making his own DIY ESL's and who has studied all the theory rather thoroughly, at high frequencies, the force needed to accelerate the membrane mass becomes greater than the force driving the air. The only thing one can do about this is using extremely thin membranes or correcting for it electronically. With 6um thick Mylar membranes, the resulting upper cut-off frequency is in the order of 17.5kHz if the size of the part of the ESL radiating the high frequencies is much greater than the wavelength. However, to avoid excessive beaming, the area radiating high frequencies has to be restricted. When you take this into account, you end up with 15kHz or so for a 6um membrane.
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Old 8th July 2003, 02:01 PM   #12
Vikash is offline Vikash  United Kingdom
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Steve,

Yeah that's something i'd be interested in. Let me know when and where.

A friend of mine has a pair of ML Ascent's, and they're transiently amazing. I've listened to familiar tracks on them and was struck by the subtleties that were completey dulled out before. A new experience for me. Now if you're saying that this can be achieved with dynamic drivers...

There was a downside of course. I found them very un-involving and lacking weight and warmth - perhaps overly analytical. But there are so many variables in the equation that I don't want to say it was the ESL's especially. No speaker seems to sing well in his room (a large square room with a low ceiling and one wall completely glass - right where the ESL's are placed no less)

I sometimes feel more engaged listeneing to my old £300 TDL RTL 3's, albeit not in his room. I mean if the overall satisfaction factor is the final say...

Anyway, the above blather is neither here nor there, I'm still after opinions on whether dynamic drivers can achieve the transient capabilities of ESL's. I haven't heard any that I could say do. But then I haven't auditioned any dynamic drivers regarded as high end (Maybe after I hear Steve's...). Perhaps those who've experienced both worlds could oblige me.
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Old 8th July 2003, 04:03 PM   #13
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stefano
I'm sorry to tell you that i've never listened to a elettrostatic loudspeaker, but i've readed some test with mesures and i've seen that they've got a lot of distortion
Try to listen at least one time in your life. I like them and even my wife does! They have also good WAF (at least Martin Logan SL3).

Anybody who can guess what my avatar is?
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Old 8th July 2003, 05:10 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by peranders

Try to listen at least one time in your life. I like them and even my wife does! They have also good WAF (at least Martin Logan SL3).

Anybody who can guess what my avatar is?

Hi Peranders,

Your avatar looks like a rock that you picked up at ayers rock.

If you'r SL3's ever stop working, consider the 4 micron Mylar.
My Sequel II and the old SL3 sounds much relaxing and with better mid's due to thinner membrane.

Audiofanatic

P.S. (Nice avatar BTW) Looks like a .............
marble that's cut in the middle.
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Old 8th July 2003, 05:45 PM   #15
Electrons are yellow and more is better!
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Quote:
Originally posted by Audiofanatic
Your avatar looks like a rock that you picked up at ayers rock.
The avatar is(EDIT: was...cactus flower now when I wrote this) a Lithops, living stone from South Africa. I'm also a Lithops nerd
http://www.mesembs.com/lithops/index.htm
http://home5.swipnet.se/~w-50719/kaktus/lithops.html

I have no plans right now to change membrane but now I have some traces left from butter. My daughter put pie paste into the speaker (both sides!) in order to get attention...she got it

I cleaned up the speaker with patience and a straw.
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Old 8th July 2003, 08:31 PM   #16
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One of our cats pissed against one of my ESL63's a few months ago. The cat is fine, but the ESL sometimes produces soft clicking and sissing noises... I still have to see if I can repair it.

By the way, regarding ESL's and distortion, according to all the literature I've read on the subject, symmetrical ESL's with a high-ohmic membrane usually have an exceptionally low distortion compared to dynamic loudspeakers.
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Old 11th December 2003, 03:36 AM   #17
wrl is offline wrl  United States
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Default E-stats versus dynamic

Well, just my humble oppinion. I heard a $50k + audio system at the local high end shop. B&W nautilus line powered by two krell monoblocks. Hard to describe exactly, but I think that these speakers definitely sounded more powerful than any estats I have heard, but there is just something more, I don't know, maybe "graceful" about electrostats. That and I still haven't heard a tweeter that can reproduce that kind of sound.

Although I should mention that I spend the majority of my life thinking about/ building e-stats and while I may admit that a specific speaker sounds different, I would be hard pressed to say it sounds better!

Anyway, estats definitely have a characteristic sound. It just up to personal taste whether you think its better.

Cheers,
Wes
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Old 11th December 2003, 07:05 AM   #18
sasha is offline sasha  Canada
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Hi guy's!
My humble advice is: buy or even better build a pair of estats and you will never go
back to anything else. You will be hooked on instantly. With estats I finally can
HEAR the music. And of course don't forget about powerful and current capable
amp. You don't need monster amp, just something decent. My 60W Audiolab is
more than enough in mid sized room. If dynamic is first on your priority list then this is not speaker for you, but for everything else they have the goods.

Believe me, I don't think about speakers any more. What a relief !!!
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Old 11th December 2003, 08:07 AM   #19
Coolin is offline Coolin  Netherlands
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Default I dont agree,

imaging with my homebrew electrostats was very nice and large but also kind of transparent. Although i must admit my amp, a musical fidelity A100 was not as good as my gainclone is now. I have a combined dynamic and horn system now and i prefer this much more. Its Much more dynamic and has a full sound. The instruments are almost phisical in presentation. I have been doing some testing with open baffles and i get the same kind of sound as with my electrostats. I think this has alot to do with the cancelation of the waves front to back, and this is not only in the bass.

BTW i still have my Sowter step up transformers 1:50 available for anyone interested.

CO
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Old 11th December 2003, 09:35 PM   #20
sasha is offline sasha  Canada
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Well, I guess it is all matter of preference. You had chance to compare both systems and You have decided. Another question is, how good your home-
brewed estats are? There is many things that needs to be done right or it might sound wrong.
Regards.
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