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Old 27th February 2011, 08:11 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kach22i View Post
...
Do people choose their news station and newspapers because they are the most accurate or fair? Or do they choose it because it presents news in a manner which reinforces our own biases?
...
Hello,

i guess you have given the answer with the second
question ... it seems to be a very human
behaviour to stick to ones preferences.

The common "quasi point source" 2..3 way speaker,
with its almost typical and frequency dependent
radiation pattern has become the de facto standard
for home listening. Even if the typical artefacts are
not present, the "common" listener will miss them.


I like to ask the question the other way round:

Which group of listeners could be interested in panel
form bending wave loudspeakers ?

If we talk about systems having dipole radiation pattern
in the bass to midrange region, there are some people
already used to ESL and planar magnetics.

This is a group being less "reserved" to try out this
concept, because it is not too far away from what they
know already, and many are convinced by the advantages
of those concepts.

People interested in my own panel form BWL often have
ESL or planar magnetics at home. Often they are
looking to overcome the drawbacks present
with many systems, like being nailed to a sweetspot
when listening and speakers being very sensitive to
any change of speaker/listener position or changes
to the room or moving the speakers to a different room.

But that also means to me - if i want some listeners
of that group being my future customers - my BWL
have to compete with very good systems of the mentioned
technologies - including resolution and naturalsness even
IN the sweetspot of their known systems.

I slowly got there, as time and money goes by, there are
currently those "little improvements" which show me
from time to time, that i have not fully understood by now
all of the issues having some level of importance
for quality. And i do not believe this process will ever
come to an end, it is simply "ongoing".

But i am at the level of fine tuning and "small" changes
now.

Developing ESL or planar magnetics is not an an easy task
too, as stated from many professionals and DIY'ers in
here and usually there are only a few designs which really
excel.

Even using electrostatic drive of the membrane does not
guarantee proper impulse response or balanced dispersion.

In the end - besides the base concept - it is the
multitude of tricks and ideas builtin to a system, which
make up its total quality as a synergetic effect. And it
has a lot to do with finding appropriate materials and
treat them in the right way.

Last but not least, it is quite a step from early prototypes,
which work well, to a regularly manufacturable speaker
having low series tolerances by reproducible
manufacturing processes.

I guess that many speaker/transducer developers will
subscribe that last statement, whatever transducers
they make.

That may be a "quantum of solace" ...


Kind Regards
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Old 1st March 2011, 12:19 PM   #42
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LineArray View Post
Which group of listeners could be interested in panel form bending wave loudspeakers ?
1. Panel converts as you already mentioned.

2. Box people looking for something different - this may be decor motivated.

3. H.T. people, I'm just thinking they would make great side or rear surround speakers too.

4. A dedicated subwoofer panel may also be another way to introduce wave speaker technology. I'm thinking it would best be covered in projection screen material and be the screen...............or hung/suspended from the ceiling (guessing it would be too large for any other installation). If suspended from the ceiling like a cloud, one could do built-in lighting around the edges and call it a light fixture to the unknowing.

5. I have dozens of ideas like this, the problem is time and money as you have already mentioned.
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Old 1st March 2011, 02:35 PM   #43
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Default bending wave panel applications

Hello, just let me add some comments on your ideas,
although your suggestions are valid in my view:

- Box people looking for something different - this may be decor motivated.

Yes, but the typical "hideaway the speakers" listener is
usually not the one having very high priority for his hobby
... at least not from my "european experience".

He will presumably not spend a higher amount of money
for a high quality panel speaker. And this is IMO the only
thing you can go to market with, since mediocre panels
are already available from many suppliers.


- H.T. people, I'm just thinking they would make great side or rear surround speakers too.

They do !

Side or rear surround is already a "classical" field of
application for panel form speakers, even for mediocre
quality ones, because they do the "diffuse soundfield"
job very well.

Btw. even electronic stretching of reverberation time in
concert halls is a proven application ...

- A dedicated subwoofer panel may also be another way to introduce wave speaker technology. I'm thinking it would best be covered in projection screen material and be the screen...............

My current panels have bass extension down below
30 Hz, if the room is large enough and speakers are
well positioned. But if you would project a picture on
them, i fear it will "chatter" at higher volume,
since there is up to +/- 4mm of excursion currently.

Maybe with a very large panel it will be doable, i have
not investigated effects of "screen vibration" on
optical perception ... you have to take into account,
that there are 20 pictures or so per second, so the
vibrational modes could disturb viewing the picture
by stroboscope effects.

Just speculation, but for "subwoofer screen" application
that should be tested IMO. If excursions are low it
should not be any problem.

The use of multi actuator panels as a screen is an
already known application too. You can even project
stereo sound using a single "screen panel" having
multiple actuators.


Cheers
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Last edited by LineArray; 1st March 2011 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 1st March 2011, 03:29 PM   #44
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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Great post, I have seen a few of the Patents of the items you talk about, but not an actual product in the market.

RE:
2. Box people looking for something different - this may be decor motivated.

I'm thinking about the people who go from a rather conventional box into a sexier Industrial Design package by B&O, Jamo or God forbid Bose.

The "decor" factor of a panel speaker is high in my opinion despite their overly 2-dimensional size. Then again much to my surprise someone in a forum called Magnepan's ugly. Thin is beautify in my eyes so I never understood that one opinion.
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Old 2nd March 2011, 12:18 AM   #45
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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A new to me patent, much as been described.

Acoustic device - US 7564984 B2 - IP.com


.................................................. .................................


Another NXT:
Amazon.com: Wharfedale LoudPanel Wall Speaker (Natural Wood Frame with Black Subwoofer): Electronics
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wharfedale.jpg (9.6 KB, 331 views)
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Last edited by kach22i; 2nd March 2011 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 25th March 2011, 09:08 PM   #46
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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Glass.................another type of wave speaker?

Video in link.

Greensound Technology Glass Speakers
Greensound Technology Glass Speakers | Ultimateavmag.com
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Old 29th March 2011, 02:10 AM   #47
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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Hi there,

I ran into this NXT (DML) concept recently and found it so interesting. I've done some trial setups, and posted here:
NXT.......rubbish??....THINK AGAIN!
(-- which is a very long thread full of DIY enthusiasts about this topic)

Initial impression was very good (even compared with my previous horns/dipole active multi-way system):

1) excellent coherence, thus top notch transient response and crisp sounds
2) large emitting area and almost omni radiation brings lifelike imaging and spaciousness


However there's no free lunch. All kinds of problems are also coming along:

a) panel material itself is critical (my current PS foam board has a nasty peak at 6.3kHz)
b) not enough bandwith for real fullrange

So, for a really good system, there're still a lot of works to do in panel damping, bass augmentation, overall integration... etc. I think the difficulties are no less than other solutions, not at all...

Nevertheless, the simple (and elegant) build, low cost, and whole new presentation (compared to ordinary speakers), excellent sound quality... etc remain to be very desirable.
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Old 21st May 2011, 01:30 PM   #48
kach22i is offline kach22i  United States
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Could this be another "Bending Wave" loudspeaker?

VAF SoundWall - Soundwall - Loudspeakers - VAF Research

Click the image to open in full size.

Quote:
VAF’s SoundWall™(Patent) concept comprises three individual module types: a Speaker module, an Acoustic Treatment module, and a Bass module. These can be used in any combination to suit the unique needs of every single room.
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Old 23rd May 2011, 07:41 AM   #49
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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Other than marketing bragging, too little information.

What a shame.
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Old 30th March 2013, 06:50 AM   #50
tnargs is offline tnargs  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CLS View Post
Other than marketing bragging, too little information.

What a shame.
There is enough information -- Wonder Wall - Soundwall - Loudspeakers - VAF Research -- but it is not aligned with the topic of this thread. It is an in-wall cone-and-dome system.
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