heard Electrostats for the first time

[Calvin]

Hi,

speakerman, if You knew ESLs in depth, You´d know that there is no single book on the market that answers all Qs about them. In fact, the sanders book is quite old, some details are simply outdated or wrong and it is aimed to a more practical building approach. The theory part leaves a lot missing.
Still though it can be regarded as a good starting point into the theme.

Be aware though that hardly anybody who builds well designed ESL panels builds them fully flat as Sanders does. The majority of designers regards it a necessity to deal with the distribution character of the panel by segmentation or curving for good reason. In fact can a true flat panel hardly be regarded as a first class transducer.
That hardly anybody uses Transmissionlines as partnering bass any more also has its good reasons. They were hyped by many DIYers in the 80´s but are simply outdated nowadays. With modern driver technology there´s no need for oversized high-Qed cabinets with soft and boomy sound. Dipoles, CBs and even some BRs simply offer better in smaller size.
The theory about crossovers and high CR-frequencies is debatable too. Sanders is no electonics man, but more of a craftsman.

Apart from that is the book easy reading and a must for everyone interested.

jauu
Calvin

[kavermei]

I agree with you, Calvin, no doubt the book got a lot of people started on ESL's a long time ago, but in many ways it's now superseded. The same goes for the little book by E. Fikier which was published by Elektuur a long time ago.

Best
Kenneth

[bentoronto]

Originally Posted by Calvin

snip
Be aware though that hardly anybody who builds well designed ESL panels builds them fully flat as Sanders does. The majority of designers regards it a necessity to deal with the distribution character of the panel by segmentation or curving for good reason. In fact can a true flat panel hardly be regarded as a first class transducer.
snip

Hello, I'm back after visiting the thread of Geddes believers where DIRECTIVITY ("C"controlled or "C"onstant) is the only discussion in town. Curiously, The Man None Shall Contradict, Floyd Toole (no joke, my hero too and a great book) has views rather opposite the Geddes fans that might be summarized as "... hell, reflections are good for you" in almost any context.

I think all ESL adherents should study these debates. BTW, I URGE you not to post there... you'll just lose your temper and earn well-deserved black marks from the administrators.

Calvin - about your dismissal of transmission lines, I think of them as theoretically and practically "clean" and defensible. My own take is that a sealed box comes closest to the mind-set of ESL people, with a big corner horn next, and a well-damped TL next.

I'd put modern designs like the so-called "tapped horn" way down on that list (wonky theory, eh) even if their performance as one-octave sub woofers has been praised by many.

I notice you didn't mention THs among the modern smaller boxes you favor?


Footnote for ESL lovers: Toole also thinks worrying about "comb filter" sound is just baloney.

[dnewma04]

If you think that Geddes and his fans dislike reflections, you didn't read very closely. There are types of reflections you want to avoid (early reflections) but other than those, some reflections are encouraged.

[Calvin]

Hi,

right, reflections are your friend and foe at the same ;-)
It depends on the type of reflection wether its good or bad.
Dipoles typically rely on a certain degree of reflections to work and sound properly. The key words are late and scattered reflections. Early reflections and direct reflections should be avoided as much as possible.

I already wrote in more detail about the requirements of a partnering bass. In short are the key parameters the distribution character and the group delay.
A dipole bass is the only bass system, that offers a similar or even equal distribution character. Anything else differs more or less from the dipolar, or cylindrical dipolar character. It too offers the lowest group delay figures, followed by sealed boxes and eventually BR and alike. I don´t know figures of Horns, but depending on FL or BL, I assume them to be somewhere between CBs and BRs.

jauu
Calvin

[bentoronto]

"Bass" needs some definition before addressing these issues. Around DIYaudio, the buzz has to do with low bass, like under 70 Hz where these issues change in importance. I'm fortunate in running one-meter-sq dipole-lites (Dayton-Wright ESLs) and in bass frequencies below that system, reflections and polar response don't matter as much as room modes.

It is a practical question of YOUR listening room whether you are bathed in lots of direction sound force - and so don't care about early or any reflections as much. But then home theater set-ups (where sound just isn't the chief room design issue too often) are another matter.

[andyr]

Originally Posted by bentoronto

"Bass" needs some definition before addressing these issues. Around DIYaudio, the buzz has to do with low bass, like under 70 Hz where these issues change in importance.

Mmmm, AFAIAC, "low bass" is under 40Hz! Sure, your speakers may not deliver 20Hz but if they're 6dB or more down @ 40Hz then IMO, you can't get no satisfaction!!

A mate of mine has some of those great stats out of WA. But he has dual subs sitting next to them and, wow! ... the combo is sublime.

Regards,

Andy

[a.wayne]

Originally Posted by bentoronto

Hello, I'm back after visiting the thread of Geddes believers where DIRECTIVITY ("C"controlled or "C"onstant) is the only discussion in town. Curiously, The Man None Shall Contradict, Floyd Toole (no joke, my hero too and a great book) has views rather opposite the Geddes fans that might be summarized as "... hell, reflections are good for you" in almost any context.

I think all ESL adherents should study these debates. BTW, I URGE you not to post there... you'll just lose your temper and earn well-deserved black marks from the administrators.

Very true and funny statements ....