heard Electrostats for the first time

[Calvin]

Hi,

ESLs well done are extremely sensitive to their surrounding.
You experienced that phenomen Borat. One has to get used to electrostatic sound, because the ease and naturality that is possible is so different to the muddled sound of most dynamic speakers. If You just knew the sound of dynamic speakers an ESL certainly sounds different und unusual. The amount of detail, low level resolution and the revealing nature of the sound makes it harder to find really capable electronics. Listening to dynamic speakers is much more relaxing, because they are restricted and hide so much information. Listen to a voice, listen to a bow drawn over a string, listen to a Snare drum, listen to piano!
But this sensitivity is a con when room and electronics don´t fit the speaker. ESLs are typically a more difficult load to amplifiers and if the amp is overly stressed it doesn´t sound well at all. Many amps with global feedback really sound the way You described, artificial, metallic, stressed. Dynamic speakers might not reveal this flaw of the amp at all. That makes things easier. But when You have listened to a good ESL setup, You immediately recognize the sound as right, natural, lifelike and You probabely never want to change back to other speakers.

jauu
Calvin

[andyr]

Hi Borat,

Since you're widening your speaker experience to statics ... can I suggest you take it upon yourself to listen to some big Maggies - like 3.6s?

Different construction & presentation ... but similar sound. 3.6s have planar bass (ie. they're not a hybrid, using a cone) and the ribbon is just as delicate as a stat. You might not like the mid-range as much, though.

Once you start to listen to dipole planars, BTW - stats or Maggies - you realise how much conventional "monkey coffins" just don't cut it!

Regards,

Andy

[Borat]

Originally Posted by Calvin

Hi,

ESLs well done are extremely sensitive to their surrounding.
You experienced that phenomen Borat. One has to get used to electrostatic sound, because the ease and naturality that is possible is so different to the muddled sound of most dynamic speakers. If You just knew the sound of dynamic speakers an ESL certainly sounds different und unusual. The amount of detail, low level resolution and the revealing nature of the sound makes it harder to find really capable electronics. Listening to dynamic speakers is much more relaxing, because they are restricted and hide so much information. Listen to a voice, listen to a bow drawn over a string, listen to a Snare drum, listen to piano!
But this sensitivity is a con when room and electronics don´t fit the speaker. ESLs are typically a more difficult load to amplifiers and if the amp is overly stressed it doesn´t sound well at all. Many amps with global feedback really sound the way You described, artificial, metallic, stressed. Dynamic speakers might not reveal this flaw of the amp at all. That makes things easier. But when You have listened to a good ESL setup, You immediately recognize the sound as right, natural, lifelike and You probabely never want to change back to other speakers.

jauu
Calvin

i didn't say it sounded stressed.

i think the problem was combination of my expectation and the way recordings are produced.

i listen on nearfield studio monitors myself so i get more or less the same sound as people hear in the studio when they produce stuff.

after all distortion is deliberately added to records to make them sound more full and rich. most instruments are nothing but distortion generators. the amount of distortion that will go on a record probably depends on what the engineers hear in their studio on their dynamic speakers ( or dynamic headphones ).

then when you play it on ESL it sounds like they didn't put in enough.

you would think that black emptiness between the sounds would be desirable but i think it also makes music sound somewhat disjointed or disorienting.

i think music would simply have to be produced differently to sound optimally on ESLs.

with imaging also ( although that is obviously room dependent ) it seems too much. it jumps from dead center in front of you to virtual surround.

again this shows relatively much greater potential than dynamic speakers but music would have to be produced specifically for ESLs to image right on them.

i guess i just don't like when speakers disappear. i guess i don't want to feel like i am there. i want to feel like i am here and the speakers are here and they play music. i feel more comfortable that way.

for movies or video games though i think ESLs should be awesome.

i have no doubt that i would get used to the peculiarity if i put ESLs in my room but then i don't know if my guests would be able to get past the "what is going on?" feeling and just enjoy music.

reminds me of when i was building an active 5-way system for my car. it was just too much realism. whenever somebody would put a siren on the track i would be like " !@#$ ! ! ! " and have cold sweat all over me before i realized i wasn't really getting arrested for drunk driving or speeding or whatever. in a car you want to be able to tell the sounds which are real from the ones coming out of your speakers. with the volume turned up it was simply difficult and unpleasant to drive.

who ever said that it is pleasant when your room disappears and you find yourself tumbling somewhere around one of Jupiter's moons ? it's not as bad at home as behind the wheel but i don't think this is desired for 90% of music listening.

[Borat]

Originally Posted by andyr

Hi Borat,

Since you're widening your speaker experience to statics ... can I suggest you take it upon yourself to listen to some big Maggies - like 3.6s?

Different construction & presentation ... but similar sound. 3.6s have planar bass (ie. they're not a hybrid, using a cone) and the ribbon is just as delicate as a stat. You might not like the mid-range as much, though.

Once you start to listen to dipole planars, BTW - stats or Maggies - you realise how much conventional "monkey coffins" just don't cut it!

Regards,

Andy

that is on the agenda of course. if you know where i could listen to them in North California don't keep it a secret.

[andyr]

Originally Posted by Borat

that is on the agenda of course. if you know where i could listen to them in North California don't keep it a secret.

Hi Borat,

As you can see from the flag against my moniker - I'm in Oz. So I have absolutely no idea where you can go to listen to Maggies in N Cal.

Can I suggest you need to post on "Planar Asylum" saying you'd like to listen to some 3-way Maggies (these have the true ribbon ... as against the smaller Maggies which have a "psuedo ribbon") and would folk post the names of HiFi dealers in N Cal - or, indeed, offer themselves up for an audition. I do know there's a guy called "Al Sekela" who has the top-model Maggies and who lives near the Napa Valley ... is that north enough for you?

Good luck,

Andy

PS: I am driven to tap my foot, nod my head etc., when I'm listening to my Maggies ... so I certainly don't think there's anything "thin"/"weird" about my speakers! Nor does anyone who's ever come and listened. :-))

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by analog_sa

Also not a big fan of Martin Logans but what are the chances the sources, amplifiers and setup at Fry's can do them any justice? Don't rush to conclusions.

I think that is it.

If the amp is not up to snuff the top frequencies may get cut off because of the current load being sucked up.

[msb64]

I heard some of the better Martin Logans a year ago down in a high end audio/video store in Baton Rouge Louisiana. They were using all McIntosh Tube equipment on them, including a tube cd player, preamp and a pair of monoblock amps. They sounded great, definitely none of the high frequency deficiencies described earlier. They projected an amazingly large and dynamic soundstage from relatively small speakers. I would recommend that before passing judgment on them, give them a good listen with decent equipment powering them first.

[Borat]

Originally Posted by msb64

I heard some of the better Martin Logans a year ago down in a high end audio/video store in Baton Rouge Louisiana. They were using all McIntosh Tube equipment on them, including a tube cd player, preamp and a pair of monoblock amps. They sounded great, definitely none of the high frequency deficiencies described earlier. They projected an amazingly large and dynamic soundstage from relatively small speakers. I would recommend that before passing judgment on them, give them a good listen with decent equipment powering them first.

yes i think some tubes upstream should do MLs good.

[fivestring]

Borat, are you suggesting that the music you listened through ESLs was recorded flawlessly and that there is a problem in the speakers ?

I think it`s vice versa, interesting reading:

The Pleasurize Music Foundation invites music listeners, artists, and music enterprises of all areas of our industry to become Active Members in order to create a basis for vibrant and natural sounding music:

DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!

Our Aim | DYNAMIC RANGE | pleasurize music!

http://www.pleasurizemusic.com/sites...E%201-2009.pdf

"We are not surprised by the fact that music listeners are losing the willingness to legally acquire music, because of the fact that contemporary releases are mercilessly over-compressed* – a situation that turns off even the biggest music fans. For example, no natural dynamic can be heard in recent CD releases from groups such as the Red Hot Chili Peppers (for example: Stadium Arcadium). The masterful drum performance by the drummer in the band Garbage (Bleed Like Me) is totally distorted. Madonna's Hard Candy generates aggression and leads to distortion when played on disco sound systems. With Metallica (Death Magnetic), the level meter needle permanently sits in the red range!
The same applies to the so-called quality criteria of surround sound recordings. Nine out of ten surround releases sound worse that the original stereo mixes or are cheap up-mixes with surround simulation – this is no way to entice music listeners to move to a new high-resolution format based on Blu-ray technology.

(* here we speak about dynamic compression and NOT data compression! Please be aware about the difference)

It has been already proofed by academic reseaches that there is no correlation between loudness and sales. There is a proven tendency that compression is limiting commercial success. The idea of over-compressed music leading to sales is only a widespread myth. The truth is: loud sells less."

The Death of High Fidelity:

The Death of High Fidelity : Rolling Stone

Article: Are Audiophiles Music Lovers?

"...as a group, audiophiles spend 100 hours reading about tone, cones, speaker cables, and audio miscellany for every hour spent in the company of a flesh-and-blood orchestra, chamber ensemble, jazz trio, or blues group."

Honor Roll of Dynamic Recordings:

Honor Roll

"Most audiophiles, I was to learn, don't "do" concerts. It's part of the religion, but not part of the life."

[Borat]

Hey string

Now they just need to show how excessive compression leads to software piracy

i will agree on one thing with you though - speed limits definitely do lead to traffic violations.