2-way esl - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Planars & Exotics

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 21st August 2009, 09:57 AM   #1
vmk is offline vmk  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Default 2-way esl

Hi all,

been testing my 1st prober esl's.
Click the image to open in full size.
Made them with idea of a 2-way esl + hybrid woofer (still to come). My wife likes to listen too, that's why I decided to try 2-way and hopefully end up with larger hot spot.

Problem is that in 2-way mode, bigger panel filtered with series resistor, the speakers doesn't sound as good as when driven both element's full range without any filtering.
Lots of accuracy is lost noticeable especially in "stereo image". Still 2-way frequency response looks quite fine:
Click the image to open in full size.

Any input? Yes, I know it would have been good to ask first, but I like to learn from my own mistakes thank you.

Few pictures of the project so far with comments can be found: here.

Last edited by vmk; 21st August 2009 at 11:27 AM. Reason: spelling, I'm Finnish...
  Reply With Quote
Old 21st August 2009, 11:26 PM   #2
diyAudio Member
 
kipman725's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London/N.lincs
Send a message via MSN to kipman725
Don't quite know the issues involved here but could you use a transformer or bi-amp to avoid the issue of the impedance of the ribbons not matching your bass driver?
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2009, 01:49 PM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
chinsettawong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Hi Vmk,

I recently finished my ESL. I use 3 panels per speaker. My panels are 30 cm + 10 cm + 30 cm. I tried using resistors to filter out the higher frequencies for the 30 cm panels, but I also didn't like it. I'm running them all full range now.

Wachara C.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2009, 02:00 PM   #4
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
diyAudio Chief Moderator
 
Salas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Athens-Greece
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmk View Post
Hi all,

been testing my 1st prober esl's... Still 2-way frequency response looks quite fine:
Click the image to open in full size.

Any input?
Although it has a rather smooth monotonic upwards tilt, there is obvious SPL deficiency up to 500Hz. 5 dB max difference not minding the troughs, else its 10-15dB. That translates to human ear in diminished midbass volume perception. Since the power range of an orchestra is at 200-800Hz, even if you don't care much about bass, there will be thin perception of any music and vocals. Since the ESLs never have sensitivity to spare so to tilt down the trend with a line level filter, better make an inverse one, tilting up from about 500Hz downwards 50Hz by 5dB. If your membrane travel margin will not allow you much undistorted SPL with that approach, then midbass capable, mains flanking biamplified columns can come to rescue. Or double subs with forward facing woofers with no breakups up to 1kHz and crossing at 400-500Hz. Normal subs good up to 100-150Hz will leave a void in to the much fundamental 200-500Hz area for your music never to sound fleshed out and with realistic size. Big room there, excellent ESLs, its worth the effort for a full spectrum big scale hybrid system. Another approach, more economic in xmax and gear, would be to tone up from 500Hz down to 150Hz the mains, cut them abruptly, and then introduce a single good sub crossing at 150Hz.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd August 2009, 05:14 PM   #5
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
diyAudio Member
 
a.wayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Front Row Center
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmk View Post
Hi all,

been testing my 1st prober esl's.
Click the image to open in full size.
Made them with idea of a 2-way esl + hybrid woofer (still to come). My wife likes to listen too, that's why I decided to try 2-way and hopefully end up with larger hot spot.

Problem is that in 2-way mode, bigger panel filtered with series resistor, the speakers doesn't sound as good as when driven both element's full range without any filtering.
Lots of accuracy is lost noticeable especially in "stereo image". Still 2-way frequency response looks quite fine:
Click the image to open in full size.

Any input? Yes, I know it would have been good to ask first, but I like to learn from my own mistakes thank you.

Few pictures of the project so far with comments can be found: here.
*Hello ,Could you explain more , is your bandpass filter made up of just resistors ?
*Is it you are running said tweeter panel full range ?
*Do you have seperate power supply or are all panels feeding off the same ?

Regards,
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2009, 08:28 PM   #6
diyAudio Member
 
JonasKarud's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
If you drive the panels in full range mode, the resulting sound field is much narrower, which in its turn results in fewer room reflections. This is good for fidelity, but less good for persons not sitting in this narrow sound field.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2009, 12:04 AM   #7
vmk is offline vmk  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Ok, thanks all. I'm going to make new version with only one ESL-element per channel. Will also use bigger air cap (now only 1.2mm), one of the speakers started to leak like crazy and died ...

Before it went I managed to test them with dynamic basses, electronic xover at 330Hz 24db/oct. Integration of esl and dynamic bass was horrible! I want to go much lower with ESL, so I need bigger panel and more room for the Mylar to move?

Size of the new ESL-panel will be 320*1200mm (stator cut off's and frames dictate that size). How low will that size of panel go if I use let's say 2mm air cap? Any successions on the air cap size?
__________________
"Trying is the first step towards failure"
-Homer Simpson
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2009, 01:10 AM   #8
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
diyAudio Chief Moderator
 
Salas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Athens-Greece
Try open H frame dipole bass. Its the enclosure first ms smearing that makes it too obvious when crossing at 350 to 500Hz to a an open frame ESL. High Qts large professional woofers without early strong break up are needed for H frame, will integrate easier than typical subs. Now if you go for larger membrane area, I am not an expert at all in ESLs, somebody else might answer your questions, I am just thinking of more difficult to control resonant modes in several directions if a membrane is getting large.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2009, 03:37 AM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
chinsettawong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmk View Post
Ok, thanks all. I'm going to make new version with only one ESL-element per channel. Will also use bigger air cap (now only 1.2mm), one of the speakers started to leak like crazy and died ...

Before it went I managed to test them with dynamic basses, electronic xover at 330Hz 24db/oct. Integration of esl and dynamic bass was horrible! I want to go much lower with ESL, so I need bigger panel and more room for the Mylar to move?

Size of the new ESL-panel will be 320*1200mm (stator cut off's and frames dictate that size). How low will that size of panel go if I use let's say 2mm air cap? Any successions on the air cap size?
My frame size is 300 x 1200 mm. Using 2 mm spacer, I get around 36Hz.

Wachara C.
  Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2009, 04:04 AM   #10
vmk is offline vmk  New Zealand
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Dunedin, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinsettawong View Post
My frame size is 300 x 1200 mm. Using 2 mm spacer, I get around 36Hz.

Wachara C.
Hey, that sounds more like it. I need to redo the leaking stator anyway and now that we have bigger living room than what we had when I started the project I might as well go little bit bigger .

I made dipole bass units once for my little Magneplanar's and they were nice match for them. Have to start to selling the idea for my wife

cheers,
Vesku
__________________
"Trying is the first step towards failure"
-Homer Simpson
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2