Woofer for Manger

[Richard Moon]

Hi Hifiers..

I have been listening Manger and Zerobox 109 for some years.

And many says that the woofer should be better and I agree.

Of course, traditional woofer can not make 12 uSec of risetime of MSW, I want to ask you what your candidate is..

Advices on multi ampling with active Xover are welcome.

I am considering 100 Hz Xover and some set-back of MSW behind the woofers.

I cannot hear the other 'tweeter + midrange' systems, even if they are expensive 'high-end'.

[bear]

I auditioned the Manger some years back and found it to be a puzzling driver system. On one hand it sounded good, on the other hand it sounded decidedly "different" than anything else I have ever listened to.

Something about the way it produces the sound I suspect is different and yields a different subjective quality overall.

Finding a standard woofer that will merge with the Manger I think will be not simple or easy. Perhaps all that you can do is to experiment with different configurations until you find something that is subjectively acceptable.

The "rise time" is irrelevant here, since you'd be using a LP xover, which is the limiting factor in terms of something like "rise time". Nothing hooked to a LP filter will exhibit a fast "rise time" - it can't.

Perhaps something like the LF section of an old Apogee ribbon would fit the bill, since it also had a peculiar overall subjective sound - I found that the "turns" of the printed ribbon did not align perfectly with the magnet structure, so there would be areas of the surface that did not get uniform drive, and perhaps were even out of phase with others. I believe that this accounted for the unique "Apogee" ribbon sound. I also think that there are some out of phase portions of the Manger surface and this accounts in part for its unique sound. So, maybe that would be a viable combination?

Just an idea...

_-_-bear

[inertial]

Hi ,

I love MSW also
I think 100Hz is too low as like the Swing : no midbass even with Subsonice.
A possibility can be an audiotechnology 8" and a lot of work with passive x-over
I am theoricall working in a 2.5 way with 2 x 8" ( not AT) and simulation looks good. My target is 6dB octave filter at 100Hz and 400Hz about
83-84 dB / 2,83 v/ anechoic......... work in progress, only theoricall for now

Cheers,
Paolo

[Richard Moon]

Thank you all.

Rise time VS LP xover thing... is very helpful. Thank you Bear.
And the 'different' sound is a good thing. If you use MSW for 1 month and you cannot bear other 2 way high-end speaks.
All other speakers sounds like 'shhhhh' noise.
It's too bad, you will lose your hobby. Only MSW.

I don't know any about Apoge and Audio Technology.
I heard that the fast rise time is due to the 'dual voice coil' structure of MSW from Daniela Manger.
So, the woofer with same structure might help.
But, I don't have that ... I will ask for Ms. Manger.

Another option would be active base. Maybe 3rd order.. At 120 Hz..

And Inertial... Would you describe your design? It would be very grateful.

I am waiting other advices.

[inertial]

Hi, Richard

My sistem idea is 2.5 way TMM.
Manger run with about 80microF + LCR trap at the resonance +LR padding on the midhigh zone.
first woofer is crossed at 400Hz 6db oct
second woofer is crossed about80-100Hz in parallel with the first.
very simply but looks good with excellent phase response

cheers
Paolo

[sbrtoy]

Sorry to be a bit off topic, but does anyone know who still sells the Manger drivers for DIY? Not sure anyone in the US is still doing so....??

[Richard Moon]

http://www.tmhaudio.com/

Are they working?.. It seems so...

[Richard Moon]

Inertial

Your 2.5 way cost much inductors or heavy.

Anyway, is it too confusing?

under 100 Hz : 2 woofers

100 ~ 400 Hz : 1 woofer + MSW

over 400 Hz : MSW...

2 way of Zerobox has many critics on Xover..

You are making more complex.

Will the 2 woofers have similar phase under 100??

Sorry for bothering ..

[inertial]

Hi Richard,

Quite correct.
Imho cost is not so important when you have yet purchased a pair of Mangers
Anyway the first woofer can go with "iron inductor" ( about 12 mH)
meanwhile the second must be air type ( 4 mH only).

Yes, the two woofers have near the same phase below 80-100Hz

I partially disagree about the 109 x-over. It is quite simple but it is imo B3(-), not transient perfect type obiouvsly
If you are worried about quality of components in series with MSW you are absolutely right. The cap in series need to be the best you can buy , very expansive
And no my X over have less parts than 109, moreover the series cap for MSW is near Half value of the original

Never bothering when we speak about MSW !

Cheers,
Paolo

[bear]

my tests many years ago showed that the Mangers will perform best with the very very very largest baffle that you can manage to use!

The response shown in the specs can not be achieved without a baffle the size of the "IEC" baffle that was used for testing...

Richard you can look at the old Apogee ribbon speakers online, just search - there is at least one site that shows the speakers being rebuilt, iirc.

I would not use a 3rd order filter myself, maybe a 4th order or higher.

On my home system that has a ~250Hz. horn on the top, I use a filter that looks like a "brickwall" going to the 15" midbass driver. That is to get rid of almost all the higher harmonics of that driver so that it does not even venture into the region that the horn operates. Yes, this does introduce some phase shift issues but imho this is a better compromise than permitting the midbass driver to "pollute" the output of the horn.

Ymmv.

You might try to build a giant Manger type driver yourself, just for bass and midbass?

Probably what you are hearing from typical 2 way or 3 way speakers compared to the Manger is a type of distortion that is coming mostly from the tweeters. Also you will not hear the sort of differential between sizes, source localization and harmonics found in a typical multiway system with any single "full range" driver, no matter what else is good or bad with it.

You will notice a similar sort of effect with a "full range" ESL loudspeaker.

_-_-bear