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Old 9th April 2008, 12:52 AM   #1
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Default final 0.3 er audio repair kit

hi,am in the process of fitting new diaphrams to these this is my second attempt but i have a problem when i power up the panel you can here a crackling sound as if the membrane is moving its the same on both speakers i tensioned it with the supplied guage from er audio and have tried heating the membrane with a hair drier but it makes no difference you can here the panel making this noise even after its been powered down for half an hour they do produce sound but distort when the volume is increased any advice you can give me would be great. cheers
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Old 9th April 2008, 05:57 PM   #2
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Hi Brian

without more info it sounds like the diaphragm is leaking/arcing. I'm not familiar with the final and its associated isolation techniques.

Any chance of more info?...I presume you've discussed this with Rob Mackinlay and followed his advice. If not I thoroughly recommend it.

Ed
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Old 9th April 2008, 08:15 PM   #3
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ed, i am sure its the diaphram moving when the panel is charged up the sound is just like the plastic stretching but i dont quite understand why it should make this sound all the time does not matter if you have sound comming out or not, am trying to put more tension on the film with a hairdryer but not having much luck. the diaphram was tensioned to 1,5 kg as per instruction but i am wondering if this is enough
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Old 10th April 2008, 04:24 AM   #4
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Default What happens when...

you unplug the high voltage power supplies? If the noise goes away then the simple answer is that you are leaking diaphragm voltage to ground.
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Old 10th April 2008, 02:13 PM   #5
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
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Hi,

You need considerable tension on the diaphragm. 1.5kg is a term of no information at all. You´d need to say what force per which unit of diaphragm width You apply.
Use a hairdryer for what its intended...haidrying! It won´t lead to any reaction when pointed towards the film. It simply doesn´t reach the required temperatures. You need a heat- gun or the plate of an oven and a temperature of ~150°C to shrink the film.

When You have applied too low tension, the diaphragm is pulled into the stator and keeps sticking there. Then You´ll here a constant tickling noise from the low level arcing. This will go on till the moment that nearly all charge has leaked away and the membrane jumps back into its intended position with a ´Blobb´ sound.
To give You an idea what tension is necessary. Pull so hard that the membrane elongates ~1-2% in length!

jauu
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Old 10th April 2008, 06:55 PM   #6
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calvin, yes i think you are right about the membrane being too slack but i followed the instruction with the kit and on my second attempt increased tension on the panel but obviously not enough ! the kit is suplied with a spring tension guage and the instructions are to pull on the film to a force of 1.5 kg as shown on the guage and this is then supposed to be right amount of tension. will remove film again and increase force. cheers for info
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Old 10th April 2008, 08:28 PM   #7
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Hi Brian

1.5kg is a lot of tension in Rob Mackinlay terms, depending on the size of panel.....If I remember the esl3 used about 800gms for 2 48"x8" panels....its 5 years since I last did this so my memory may be suspect.........what does Rob say, after all it is his kit.

so, for 1.5kg knowing the size of panel would give an idea of whats going on.

To follow up on what Moray has said, what happens when you turn the bias supply off and then on again after say 10 mins??

I'm still behind the leaking argument at the moment

Ed
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Old 10th April 2008, 10:36 PM   #8
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ed, when you switch off the supply you still get the same noise, it gradually goes as the charge dissapates, when you re- connect the supply it starts again. the diaphram er audio supply is thinner than the normal final one just wondering if its too thin to get a good tension, will run out of film if i dont get the third effort right. appreciate your input. thanks brian
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Old 11th April 2008, 12:42 AM   #9
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Default So you have a short to ground...

your static charge is not static, it's on the move. You need to make sure that there is no path to ground for the charge on the diaphragm. This could be some form of contaminant like fluff dust hair but since these are newly built and both are doing the same thing it is probably a short that you caused when you applied the diphragm coating. One other important question needs to be asked. Is the diaphragm(s) centred between the stators or is it colapsed? This really should have been asked first but here we are. Do the speakers play and make reasonable levels? If every thing seems to be fine but for reduced level and the arcing noise then you should look to the contact point on the diaphragm (for the HT supply) first. After that you will need to see if you can locate the short to ground on the diaphragm. You could play music loud in the dark and watch to see where the light show is. You may need to split the stator panels and clean the inside surfaces with a good degrease type of compound. Don't use detergent as that will leave residue that is conductive. Solvent and a soft brush would also do. Short of all this you might consider getting some local help to rebuild for you. Did the speakers exhibit any arcing problems prior to your rebuild? If the answer is yes then you might be up against problems that will not go away. So you will have to think things through and find out where/what the problem is. Additional film cost is not a big worry you have to sluth out the problem here before you can repair it.
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Old 11th April 2008, 08:10 AM   #10
Calvin is offline Calvin  Germany
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Hi,

again I regard to the weight-problem.
The simple 1.5kG or later named 800gr.... what does it mean? Nothing at all! realize that it´s a completely useless value as long as You don´t add to which membrane unit it applies. Do You apply 1.5kg of pulling force to which width? Is it 1.5kg/cm is it 1.5kg/5cm or what?
1.5kg/5cm would already mean a quite low value of tension.

All Your descriptions of the tickling noise just indicate a collapsed diaphragm. If You for example lay down alminium foil directly on the stator and connect this to the HV-supply You´ll hear a sound that reminds very much of the purling of a little creek. ;-) It fades away slowly as the PS is discharging.
So you have to apply more tension to the diaphragm. This can be done in two ways. First is to encrease the mechanical tension and the second is to decrease freely vibrating distances of the membrane by decreasing the distance of the spacers or by adding supporting points.
See how Audiostatic uses silicon dots to decrease the distance and to support the membrane.

Also it might help to use a little indicator circuit (the blinker) that gives You an idea about the quality of the insulation (leakage)
search for the blinker circuit in thje ESL-Threads. It consist odf a small glow discharge lamp and a capacitor.

jauu
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