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Old 19th July 2012, 07:06 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Legis View Post
Double coating with a sponge made the membrane quite smoky and it's impossible to get homogenous transparency.
I've never seen Licron crystal look like that.
Was pretty common for the original Licron formula 1755.

Any idea what the humidity was when you applied the coating?
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Old 19th July 2012, 07:26 PM   #592
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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Hi Steve, around 50% says my humidity meter. It was way more transparent after the first (sponge) layer, the second made it much more smoky. I should have tried it after the first coat and then apply more if it was not enough, but too late now.'

I'm just about to start putting the front stataor on...
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Old 19th July 2012, 08:05 PM   #593
tyu is offline tyu  United States
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Looks great....
An looks like you got the bias feed right this is how all esl should look...big are small...thanks for the info an pic...good job...goodluck
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Old 19th July 2012, 08:08 PM   #594
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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I have to do some more testing tomorrow, but it seems that I got 5-7dB gain in efficiency. The initial charging blinks are lightning fast and the blinking rate settles very fast compared to before. The smokiness of the coating is not an issue, at least now in the evening light levels.

I hope it sounds as good as the previous coat.
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Old 19th July 2012, 10:06 PM   #595
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Actually it looks about right,

ESL Diaphragm coating

It is more noticeable do to the refraction of the light.

I have had better aesthetic results as well by just spraying on single coat but it is hardly noticeable once the diagphram is hidden behind the stator.

Looks Great Legis !!

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Old 19th July 2012, 10:55 PM   #596
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I've spray-coated three sets of panels with Licron Crystal. The first set (my friend Mavric's panels) turned out very clear. The set that I attempted to spray but ran low and had to smooth out with a foam brush turned out streaky. The third set (my current panels) were sprayed on a humid day and were a bit cloudy (not streaky) but still fairly clear.

BTW, Legis, your panels look very well made and I'm sure the streaking will have no adverse affect at all on their sound-- which I predict will be fabulous.

Last edited by CharlieM; 19th July 2012 at 10:58 PM.
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Old 20th July 2012, 10:27 PM   #597
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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I managed to membrane the other speaker with 3,5m Dupont mylar that I got a sample. The membrane is only 1cm wider than the radiating area, which makes it little difficult and this is the reason I did not try it before as I though it cannot be done.

Does thinner Dupont sound much better than 6m Hostaphan? What kind of sensitivity increase one can expect at 20kHz? If the membrane has high enough tension to withstand 4,7kV bias withous sucking into the back stator I will do also the other panel with 3,5m. I could not apply just as high tension, little lower, but I hope it's enough.

I will coat it tomorrow with licron crystal, this time with only one generous layer applied with sponge, trying to minimize the treaks and cloudyness that double coating does.

Last edited by Legis; 20th July 2012 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 20th July 2012, 11:21 PM   #598
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I have only used .25 mil(6um) and thicker stuff so far and I can say I do like the thinner stuff better.
Although the difference could only really be noticed in a side by side A/B comparison.

I do have some 3" wide 2.5um (.1 mil) and 1.5 um (.06 mil) but I haven't really tried it yet.

I did use the 1.5um stuff in my micro ESL made out of credit cards but it was before I had the Crystal formula and before I had the transformer issues solved.
So, I didn't get to fully test it before I tore it apart for some pictures.

But what I did get out of it on a 500v bias was such a natural sound that I just couldn't believe my ears.
In fact I thought that there was little highs and I wrote it off thinking that the holes where just to small and being restrictive.
As it turned out it was the sample of music that I was listening to off of YouTube.
When I had found the right music I was just blown away.

I can imagine that it was hard to get a good tension with such a large piece as it is quite stretchy.
I had the same issues using my 6um stuff on only an 8" wide span but I did finally get it to work.

I think what Charlie said about the humidity makes a lot of sense as my very first samples of crystal are made at the end of winter time and were very clear, and, later samples were made toward the end of spring and more into summertime and I too had noticed that they where a bit more cloudy than the very first sample I had made.

Nevertheless the coating seems to be very consistent and reliable even after a few years as I had reported.

Here are two shots that I just took of both formulas and you can see the difference.
One is with the flash on and the other is without.
Sorry the one without flash got slightly blurred as the battery in my camera was getting low.

Attached Images
File Type: jpg WITH FLASH.jpg (57.2 KB, 176 views)
File Type: jpg WITHOUT FLASH.jpg (58.6 KB, 176 views)
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Old 20th July 2012, 11:29 PM   #599
Legis is offline Legis  Finland
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Hi Jer,

I would also lean to think that lighter stuff sounds better. The difference in SQ between 12m and 6m was devastating, but there was also difference in the coating (from aluminum coated to high res coating, no wonder why it sounded better).

The 6m gave much more highs (maybe 7dB more at 20khz) than the 12m. I would think that 6m membrane also has some (maybe not much) mass related attenuation at 20kHz, so 3,5m might give more highs (and also less attenuation in the ultra freqs). I hope I'm wiser tomorrow. I would aslo presume intuitively that the micro resolution is better.

Licron crystal is quite clear winner in aesthetics from those two panels.



Last edited by Legis; 20th July 2012 at 11:32 PM.
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Old 21st July 2012, 12:08 AM   #600
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Yes, I detected about some loss of highs as well but that was before I had any measuring equipment.

On the test of those to diagphrams,the regular formula was quite a bit thicker and I had to boost the highs about 2db or so in order for it to sound the same as the left one.
But even with the lesser mass the left one (crystal) had I slightly more finesse to its sound than the heavier (and thicker) regular formula.

When I first started them up after seven years of being soiled they still worked.
Then I cleaned them and that made them sound so much better.
Then I redid one of them with the Crystal and I was like OMG what a difference!
It gave a whole new meaning to the name Crystal!

It is amazing how much of an effect that little bit of difference of mass can make !!!

I can just imagine how your big panels are going to sound with that thin stuff.

Can't wait to hear your next report about your results.

I'm thinking of when I do rebuild my 8"x22" panels to add a tweeter panel with some of the thin stuff that I have and use a pair of my 8" subs in a dipole configuration for my Nearfield system in front of my mixer.
As it won't be designed to do loud, Just only clean for mix downs.


Last edited by geraldfryjr; 21st July 2012 at 12:11 AM.
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