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Old 4th January 2010, 06:59 PM   #251
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I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...

ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...

Last edited by JonasKarud; 4th January 2010 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 5th January 2010, 03:07 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasKarud View Post
I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...

ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...
I can help to translate, sometimes, if time permits.
Jonas, do you have an access to a microscope with/without camera.
If the surface structure changes - so be it.
BTW A piece of smooth sheetmetal aluminum/copper shall work almost as good as water... just do not stay at one spot for a long time.
Alex
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Old 5th January 2010, 08:27 AM   #253
EdwinR3 is offline EdwinR3  Belgium
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[QUOTE=JonasKarud;2034910]I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...

Hello Jonas,

I have been planning to try to use an old flatiron for stretching in stead of my
stretching table. Since an iron can be heathcontrolled for cloating in polyester, nylon, and the likes, maybe it is possible with better control to merge the nylon to the PET film. I'm still looking out for an old flatiron and some time.
Modelplain builders use some kind of an iron to stretch mylar on wings apparantly, so it should be possible.

Edwin
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Old 5th January 2010, 08:44 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasKarud View Post
I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...

ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...
Hi! Jonas. Google makes wonderful translation.

You try to use a soluble nylon 6.6. It is necessary to dissolve it in phenol with isopropanol in the ratio 8:2. At 10 ml. "Solvent" to dissolve 0.5gr. nylon 6.6.
Apply a very thin layer of the soluble nylon 6.6, To roll it a special roller over the surface of the membrane.
Dry it at 70 C - 80 C the heat gun. After drying, the layer will receive a video clip of white hue.And now you can try to weld two-layer mylar with nylon 6.6, using the heat gun as a video clip.

Last edited by Statics man; 5th January 2010 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 5th January 2010, 09:52 AM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonasKarud View Post
I've done some experiments with a heat gun, Prostat and Mylar. I took a small circular frame, mounted a 6uM mylar film to it, applied a thin coat of Prostat, placed it
carefully floating on a water surface in a small bowl. Then with a 1000 Watt, 400 degree heat gun, i tried to fuse the Prostat into the Mylar. The Mylar doesn't melt due to the cold water pressing on the other side. Its very difficult to decide if this approach is better than than ordinary "painting", further testing lays ahead...

ps.Statics man, thanks for the link to the russian thread!
I can tell you that computers have long way to go when it comes to translation...
To Valery: I am not as good as Google or Babelfish so it's my humble help to you, StaticMan
Method of graphite coating by rubbing graphite dust into membrane.

1. Glue membrane to a wooden frame, heat shrink it using hairdryer or halogen lamp.
Frame size has to be surely larger than esl panel, allowing membrane to be attached to the final frame without detachment from the wooden one.
2. Clean membrane using cotton cloth soaked with isopropyl alcohol.
3. Sprinkle membrane with graphite crumbles ginding the piece of graphite against the sandpaper.
4. Rub graphite into membrane till crumbles disappear. Try to achieve even coating.
Use a piece of foam about 1in thick glued to veneer holder 50x100x5 mm in size.
5. Remove excessive graphite using vacuum cleaner.
6. Measure membrane resistance using uA meter and 6kV power supply. Readings shall be 3-6 uA which is equal to 1e9-2e9 Ohms
7. Apply thin layer of Nylon overcoat, using thin cloth wrapped glue roller.

Overcoat composition:
Phenol - 60 g
Isopropanol -30 mL
Nylon 66 - 3 to 5 g (author used German made fishing line cut into 2-3 cm piecies).

PROPER VENTILATION OF THE PROCEDURE DESCRIBED BELOW IS A MUST

Make a water bath, i.e. put a jar with components into a larger bowl partially filled with water.
Try to keep water temperature at 80 C. Stirr solution continiously till all nylon pieces are dissolved.
Close the jar lid. Coating gelation is possible. Heat the jar using hot water if the latter happens.

8. Dry membrame using hairdryer.
9. Check resistance It has to be 3e9 - 6e9 Ohms
10. Both sides have to be coated.

With the best regards,
.........

Step #11, as I understood it, is shown on the video.

Pretty much close to phenol-alcohol technology cited on the WEB.
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Old 5th January 2010, 02:19 PM   #256
Few is offline Few  United States
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From the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for phenol:
Quote:
POISON! DANGER! MAY BE FATAL IF SWALLOWED, INHALED OR ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. RAPIDLY ABSORBED THROUGH SKIN. CORROSIVE. CAUSES SEVERE BURNS TO EVERY AREA OF CONTACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, LIVER AND KIDNEYS. COMBUSTIBLE.

Inhalation:
Breathing vapor, dust or mist results in digestive disturbances (vomiting, difficulty in swallowing, diarrhea, loss of appetite). Will irritate, possibly burn respiratory tract. Other symptoms listed under ingestion may also occur.

Ingestion:
Poison. Symptoms may include burning pain in mouth and throat, abdominal pain, nausea, vomiting, headache, dizziness, muscular weakness, central nervous system effects, increase in heart rate, irregular breathing, coma, and possibly death. Acute exposure is also associated with kidney and liver damage. Ingestion of 1 gram has been lethal to humans.

Skin Contact:
Corrosive. Rapidly absorbed through the skin with systemic poisoning effects to follow. Discoloration and severe burns may occur, but may be disguised by a loss in pain sensation.

Eye Contact:
Corrosive. Eye burns with redness, pain, blurred vision may occur. May cause severe damage and blindness.
MSDS make everything sound dangerous, but I've seen students end up with really nasty burns from phenol so caution is definitely in order.
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Old 5th January 2010, 03:01 PM   #257
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[QUOTE = мало; 2035811] Из данных по безопасности (MSDS) для фенола:


MSDS сделать [i] все [/ i] звука опасно, но я видел студентов в итоге действительно неприятные ожоги от фенола такая осторожность, безусловно, по порядку. [/ QUOTE]
Uses :

Description

The main use of phenol is as a feedstock for
phenolic resins, bisphenol A and caprolactam (an
intermediate in the production of nylon-6). It is used
in the manufacture of many products including
insulation materials, adhesives, lacquers, paint,
rubber, ink, dyes, illuminating gases, perfumes, soaps
and toys (IARC, 1989; WHO, 1994). Also used in
embalming and research laboratories. It is a product
of the decomposition of organic materials, liquid
manure, and the atmospheric degradation of
benzene.

It is found in some commercial disinfectants,
antiseptics, lotions and ointments. Phenol is active
against a wide range of microorganisms, and there are
some medical and pharmaceutical applications including
topical anaesthetic and ear drops, sclerosing agent.
It is also used in the treatment of ingrown nails in
the "nail matrix phenolization method" (Kimata et al.,
1995). Another medical application of phenol is its
use as a neurolytic agent, applied in order to relieve
spasms and chronic pain (Wood, 1978; Geller,
1997).

It is used in dermatology for chemical face peeling.
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Old 5th January 2010, 03:48 PM   #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Few View Post
From the Material Safety Data Sheet (MSDS) for phenol:


MSDS make everything sound dangerous, but I've seen students end up with really nasty burns from phenol so caution is definitely in order.
Specific preventative measures

Phenol should be kept in a tightly closed container, in
a cool, dry place, away from heat, flame and oxidising
agents. It is light sensitive and should be kept in the dark
(WHO, 1994).

Protective clothing should will be appropriate to the amount
and form of the phenol being handled. It should be handled
wearing an approved respirator; viton, butyl rubber or
neoprene gloves (not nitrile or PVA gloves), safety goggles
and other protective clothing. Safety showers and

polyethylene glycol 300 should be near where phenol is being
handled.
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Old 6th January 2010, 03:30 PM   #259
bentl is offline bentl  Norway
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Is it any point in heat treating a mylar film after Elvamide coating has been applied? Has anyone tried this?

I am concidering the following procedure for fitting the diapragm to the stator.
1. Coat glass plate with soap water and flatten out mylar film
2. Fit mylar diaphragm to temporary frame with double sided tape
Clean the mylar with ?? Soap and water in shower?Acetone?
3. Apply luke warm Elvamide solution (doped with ink or not?) Spray or roll?
4. Allow to dry for a few hours
5. Carefully heath shrink mylar film hopefully also create a clear elvamide coating
6. Glue membrane to stator/spacer assembly one side using Loctite 303 with activator
(One component on spacer, one coponent on film)
7. Glue other stator/spacer on top of the other

I use perforated metal stators and I guess it's is not smart heating the stator as it might twist.

Any comments or suggestion will be appreciated.

Regards

Bent
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Old 6th January 2010, 07:52 PM   #260
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I recommend to work with film to use a special frame for stretching the membrane. Frame size should be such so that the loudspeaker can be glued directly on the frame, while not breaking stretch film.
All operations of a conductive coating layer and cover it with nylon 6.6 from external atmospheric impact is made on the frame.
After working with coating is necessary to stretch a film of the membrane , for to glue the stators.

Last edited by Statics man; 6th January 2010 at 08:13 PM.
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