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Old 22nd July 2009, 06:54 PM   #151
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Hi Jonas,

you told me that you put the cartridge of a specific denish permanent marker into a 5 Liter bottle of DFP 410 and dissolved it for a few days. The marker brand isn't avaiable anymore

i did some measurements with your old recipe (which i have 50ml still on stock) and diluting with destilled water set conductivity proportional to diluting.

As others propose some kind of permanent marker i believe that only specific ones will work. Which one ? i do not know.

Maybe its better to go with black ink (Chinese ink), because its made of carbon black.


Capaciti
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Old 22nd July 2009, 07:25 PM   #152
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Quote:
For OEMs, an interesting alternative is to add some Ciba Irgastat P, maybe 10%, to Surlyn or similar ionomer. That would extrude and downgauge very nicely, and the films are very tough and flexible. In previous work, I found that the conductivity was pretty insensitive to humidity. As a bonus, the film is clear and with conductivity throughout the bulk, the charge distribution will be quite even.

Again, not practical for the diyer, but it would be nice if one of the larger manufacturers used some actual up-to-date technology instead of rehashing 30 year old methods.
Has anyone investigated Semitron products from Quadrant? I had considered them at one time for a static dissipative turntable mat but one or more of their products may work for diaphragms.

http://www.quadrantepp.com/default.aspx?pageid=192

John
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Old 22nd July 2009, 07:56 PM   #153
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Problem is, they're only supplied in stock shapes and the material selection doesn't include the better polymers for thin films.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 09:29 PM   #154
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Capaciti, the marker pen was added for better hardening, and as I remember it, one of the many markers I used was very big and had zebra stripes on the label. I do not remember the brand.

To much ink destroyed the conductivity.

Bolserst, do a test first without diluting and marker pen.

After that You can experiment with different marker pens.

I always used a ordinary foam roller when applying the coating, rolling very slowly to avoid small irritating bubbles. I recently have discovered is that its good to warm up the coating to fingerwarm before applying.

It would be very nice to receive a sample of this 1720 polish.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 10:21 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonasKarud
Capaciti, the marker pen was added for better hardening, and as I remember it, one of the many markers I used was very big and had zebra stripes on the label. I do not remember the brand.

To much ink destroyed the conductivity.

Bolserst, do a test first without diluting and marker pen.

After that You can experiment with different marker pens.

I always used a ordinary foam roller when applying the coating, rolling very slowly to avoid small irritating bubbles. I recently have discovered is that its good to warm up the coating to fingerwarm before applying.

It would be very nice to receive a sample of this 1720 polish.

Jonas,

Can you describe what you mean by hardening? Did the DFP 410 remain slightly soft or tacky without the marker pen additive? or did it just help it cure more quickly?

Also, do you happen to know what chemical it was in the marker that was beneficial for hardening?


I got a response back from Techspray. They said that shelf life was typical more than a couple of years if kept at room temperature away from sunlight. They did say that if the product gets too cold(near freezing) it can separate.

I called and placed the order only to find out that it was a non-stocked item, so shipped directly from manufacturer. Delivery time is typically 2 weeks.

I will let you know when it arrives and we can arrange for shipment of a decent size sample for you to experiment with.
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Old 22nd July 2009, 11:37 PM   #156
jlsem is offline jlsem  United States
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Problem is, they're only supplied in stock shapes and the material selection doesn't include the better polymers for thin films.
Yeah, I didn't see whether they were available as film or not - my only dealings with the stuff were on the surplus market. So polyethyleneimine film is not suitable? I've always wondered about the performance of films with higher internal friction than Mylar (although I'm not saying that's the case with PEI - I don't know).

John
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Old 23rd July 2009, 01:50 AM   #157
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PEI is difficult to make into a good film. For years, when GE made the resin, their extruded film was terrible- I had to source it from an independent extruder. Even then, getting anything of quality below 0.005" was pretty much impossible. Unfortunately, for an ESL, you need something ten times thinner....

The damping of these engineering thermoplastics is not great- the films are "crinkly" compared to PET. PEN might be a good candidate, too. I still like Clysar the best from that standpoint (and the ability to really shrink it!), but I no longer have access to thin enough gauges.
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Old 23rd July 2009, 07:50 AM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by bolserst

Jonas,

Can you describe what you mean by hardening? Did the DFP 410 remain slightly soft or tacky without the marker pen additive? or did it just help it cure more quickly?

Also, do you happen to know what chemical it was in the marker that was beneficial for hardening?
The coating cured more quickly and stuck to the film in a better way. Sorry, I do not know the chemical that was beneficial for
hardening.

The coating could be used without adding marker pen ink, but subjectivly, I thought it worked better with the ink. You know, its very hard to experiment with these things, as the test periods may last up to a year!
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Old 23rd July 2009, 12:06 PM   #159
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Hello Arendjan,

(dangerous question)
Did you ever notice any AUDIBLE differences between a low resistance coating (10 exp 7 or less) and a coating with 10exp11 ohm?

I've got audiostatic ES200rs myself, maybe you are fimiliar with that type...


regards, MartinJan
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Old 23rd July 2009, 02:59 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by JonasKarud


The coating cured more quickly and stuck to the film in a better way. Sorry, I do not know the chemical that was beneficial for
hardening.

The coating could be used without adding marker pen ink, but subjectivly, I thought it worked better with the ink. You know, its very hard to experiment with these things, as the test periods may last up to a year!

I did a little research on the Sharpie website to find out what chemicals their different markers use:

1) Standard and industrial fine point: Dyes, n-propanol, n-butanol, diacetone alcohol
described as quick drying, permanent on most sufaces

2) Industrial Magnum and Kingsize: xylene, dyes (these are the super stinky nearly instant drying types)
descriped as water resistant, quick drying, marks on wet and oily surfaces

3) Industrial professional: Nitroparaffin solvent, naphtha solvent, resins, dyes
described as quick drying, permanent on most surfaces including wet, oily, abrasive, and nonporous surfaces

4) Industrial Meanstreak: Ethylene glycol monobutyl ether, pigments, resins, gelling agents
described as waterproof formula, resists fading, adheres to virtually any surface

Other than the xylene, the data sheets indicate that the chemicals are considered non-toxic.

3) & 4) look the most promising to me for improving adherance to PET film.

Anybody with a little chemical background or experience with coatings have any comments?
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