Hi there, im wondering if people are interested in making a mid/high panel alla magie.
First of all why ?
well i made serveral ESL panels and speakers but i cants stand the fact theres always something wrong with it or one has lower SPL or its starts hissing after a while in my opinion they sound GREAT but i had enough of fixing them. i had a magie once sounded pretty good but i dont have room for a panel the size of a door so i thought why not make a hybride just like i do with the esl. can save huge costs on the audio tranformer and also we dont need a High current board, and maybe even higher spl and a nice load for your amp so you dont have to build a power plant to drive them.
What do we need ?
*Perforated plate
*Mylar
*Verry thin wire (like the one to make a coil)
*Magnets (loads of them)
*Some glue
*Maybe a frame
What do we got already ?
well i got mylar and i got some steel perforated plate from an old esl project that failed (cant get those panels isolated enough)
they have a nice size of 1 meter by 10 cm more then enough for a hyrbide i prefer even smaller because it will cost a fortune to buy so many magnets.
* Mylar
* Perforated Plate
Sites i already visited so you dont have to mention them
?
Lafolia
this site is pretty much the only one showing (sort of) how to make one , but i dont think erverything is clear and also hes not making a hybride but a fullrange. no actually pictures of the project to.
Anybody wanna help ?
is there anyone that would like to make some to ? so we can develope together as they say 2 know more then 1
Problems to solve?
1 What kind of magnet layout we need for a panel of 30cm h - 10cm w
2 - How much magnets do we need for such panel (depends on the magnet size ofcourse)
3 - Where do we get magnets ?
4 - How many leads of wire and the layout of the coil
Sites & info
Magnets
http://www.supermagnete.de
http://www.supermagnete.ch
well hope people want to build one to.
First of all why ?
well i made serveral ESL panels and speakers but i cants stand the fact theres always something wrong with it or one has lower SPL or its starts hissing after a while in my opinion they sound GREAT but i had enough of fixing them. i had a magie once sounded pretty good but i dont have room for a panel the size of a door so i thought why not make a hybride just like i do with the esl. can save huge costs on the audio tranformer and also we dont need a High current board, and maybe even higher spl and a nice load for your amp so you dont have to build a power plant to drive them.
What do we need ?
*Perforated plate
*Mylar
*Verry thin wire (like the one to make a coil)
*Magnets (loads of them)
*Some glue
*Maybe a frame
What do we got already ?
well i got mylar and i got some steel perforated plate from an old esl project that failed (cant get those panels isolated enough)
they have a nice size of 1 meter by 10 cm more then enough for a hyrbide i prefer even smaller because it will cost a fortune to buy so many magnets.
* Mylar
* Perforated Plate
Sites i already visited so you dont have to mention them
? Lafolia
this site is pretty much the only one showing (sort of) how to make one , but i dont think erverything is clear and also hes not making a hybride but a fullrange. no actually pictures of the project to.
Anybody wanna help ?
is there anyone that would like to make some to ? so we can develope together as they say 2 know more then 1
Problems to solve?
1 What kind of magnet layout we need for a panel of 30cm h - 10cm w
2 - How much magnets do we need for such panel (depends on the magnet size ofcourse)
3 - Where do we get magnets ?
4 - How many leads of wire and the layout of the coil
Sites & info
Magnets
http://www.supermagnete.de
http://www.supermagnete.ch
well hope people want to build one to.
WrineX
Great idea. I have Maggies (and space...) but there is surely a great opportunity for a hybrid. This is, after all very familiar to the ESL fanatics.
To my ears, the maggies have such smooth midrange and treble that a very good hybrid should be possible. Option would be to add woofers in open baffle, to complement the dipole mid-treble panel. Alternatively, one could employ a reflex enclosure to save space.
The maggie panels have bass-mid "voicewires" spaced about 8 - 10 mm apart. Treble wires are about half that spacing. If you could tolerate height, but not width in the speaker's form, I could imagine a very successful quasi ribbon line source, without all the hassle of trying to slit aluminium foil
Magnets are the real hassle - it would be nice if possible to use a few magnets to energise cheap steel pole pieces. Something I need to think about. However if you could use Neodymium magnets, these would offer much more flux than the ferrite material used in (my) maggies - should improve the sensitivity, all things being equal.
Some stuff that springs to mind:
mylar
frames
steel mesh
contact adhesive
enamelled wire
means of stretching the membrane
wire pattern jig
Cheers,
Ed
Great idea. I have Maggies (and space...) but there is surely a great opportunity for a hybrid. This is, after all very familiar to the ESL fanatics.
To my ears, the maggies have such smooth midrange and treble that a very good hybrid should be possible. Option would be to add woofers in open baffle, to complement the dipole mid-treble panel. Alternatively, one could employ a reflex enclosure to save space.
The maggie panels have bass-mid "voicewires" spaced about 8 - 10 mm apart. Treble wires are about half that spacing. If you could tolerate height, but not width in the speaker's form, I could imagine a very successful quasi ribbon line source, without all the hassle of trying to slit aluminium foil
Magnets are the real hassle - it would be nice if possible to use a few magnets to energise cheap steel pole pieces. Something I need to think about. However if you could use Neodymium magnets, these would offer much more flux than the ferrite material used in (my) maggies - should improve the sensitivity, all things being equal.
Some stuff that springs to mind:
mylar
frames
steel mesh
contact adhesive
enamelled wire
means of stretching the membrane
wire pattern jig
Cheers,
Ed
i recon just stretch a little with tape to a table glue the whole thin in de the panel and after that heat shrink and then add the coil.
i think i have to buy some neodym magnets to try because now i keep wondering in the dark. gona try a real small setup first with around 15 magnets in 3 rows of 5 and gona check if the magnets really have to stick together or maybe i can ave some spacing within to save costs.
theres one guy on this forum that already made one but he uses magnets at front and back, but if i can remember correctly my maggies only had magnets at front no on the back and also they use ferriet magnets so witch neo we have to accomplish the same results or even beter. with less magnetss only at the front.
i think i have to buy some neodym magnets to try
because now i keep wondering in the dark. gona try a real small setup first with around 15 magnets in 3 rows of 5 and gona check if the magnets really have to stick together or maybe i can ave some spacing within to save costs.theres one guy on this forum that already made one but he uses magnets at front and back, but if i can remember correctly my maggies only had magnets at front no on the back and also they use ferriet magnets so witch neo we have to accomplish the same results or even beter. with less magnetss only at the front.
Definitely - have a go.
I experiented recently (after getting excited about the Maggies). I happened to have quite a few Neo magnets around here at work. I stripped some multi strand wire, took an individual strand and stuck this to the centre of a strip of tape. This was held next to a magnetic gap about 1mm wide and three inches long, consisting of 6 one inch square flat magnets(this is all that was available..). Not much output when connected to the headphone output of my PC (not much current!), but it did work, and had very nice clean treble output. A properly stretched mylar film would offer further improvement.
In fact this experiment got me thinking along a different track entirely - what about a magnetic planar equivalent to the Stax electrostatic headphones? I think they could be very good indeed, though one would have to be careful about minimising magnet weight, for the sake of comfort.
Ed
I experiented recently (after getting excited about the Maggies). I happened to have quite a few Neo magnets around here at work. I stripped some multi strand wire, took an individual strand and stuck this to the centre of a strip of tape. This was held next to a magnetic gap about 1mm wide and three inches long, consisting of 6 one inch square flat magnets(this is all that was available..). Not much output when connected to the headphone output of my PC (not much current!), but it did work, and had very nice clean treble output. A properly stretched mylar film would offer further improvement.
In fact this experiment got me thinking along a different track entirely - what about a magnetic planar equivalent to the Stax electrostatic headphones? I think they could be very good indeed, though one would have to be careful about minimising magnet weight, for the sake of comfort.
Ed
WrineX said:Sites i already visited so you dont have to mention them
Lafolia
this site is pretty much the only one showing (sort of) how to make one , but i dont think erverything is clear and also hes not making a hybride but a fullrange. no actually pictures of the project to.
I have a pair of La Folia - made in the mid 80's, that yo can have if you come and get them - and I have the original danish article from danish magazine high fidelity, too
se foto left!
I'll vouch for this guy - he's great to buy from.
And look at his prices!
http://engconcepts.net/List_Of_Magnet_Bundles.asp
Personally, what I would really like to see is some speakers that don't have issues with "beaming". I know being in the "sweet spot" is important, but Maggies (and most electrostatics) are ridiculous!
And look at his prices!
http://engconcepts.net/List_Of_Magnet_Bundles.asp
Personally, what I would really like to see is some speakers that don't have issues with "beaming". I know being in the "sweet spot" is important, but Maggies (and most electrostatics) are ridiculous!
As a side note, I found a guy who sells the Kapton ribbon with aluminum traces used for the Carver ribbons.
$20/ft - not cheap!
I was wondering if similar results could be created by taking some ridiculously thin aluminum and sticking it to some one-mil Kapton tape.
http://www.kaptontape.com/1_Mil_Kapton_tape.php
Ferric chloride will not - as far as I know - damage plastics at all. As a result, the aluminum could then be etched into smaller traces - for example, a 3/4" wide "ribbon" could have 5 1/8" wide traces on it.
While it would be thicker than a true ribbon, it would also be much cheaper - 3/4" 1mil kapton tape is $14 for 36 yards.
$20/ft - not cheap!
I was wondering if similar results could be created by taking some ridiculously thin aluminum and sticking it to some one-mil Kapton tape.
http://www.kaptontape.com/1_Mil_Kapton_tape.php
Ferric chloride will not - as far as I know - damage plastics at all. As a result, the aluminum could then be etched into smaller traces - for example, a 3/4" wide "ribbon" could have 5 1/8" wide traces on it.
While it would be thicker than a true ribbon, it would also be much cheaper - 3/4" 1mil kapton tape is $14 for 36 yards.
WrineX said:and oooooh if i lived in denmark , i whas taking a train right now for your lafolia
By train !!? lol
- anybody else, who wants them?My wife bought me a pair of Martin Logan Clarity - sound is almost the similar, but the Wife Acceptance Factor are higher with the ML's .....
I'm in the process of designing a set of Drivers similar to the Eminent Technology units.
A note about the cost:
You'll most likely spend more money on planar magnetic speakers than electrostatic speakers. The input transformer and power supply will almost certainly be cheaper than enough neo magnets to make a similar sized panel.
Sheldon
A note about the cost:
You'll most likely spend more money on planar magnetic speakers than electrostatic speakers. The input transformer and power supply will almost certainly be cheaper than enough neo magnets to make a similar sized panel.
Sheldon
Sure thing, I've been working on the solid model drawings for midrange drivers. I'm planning on using lexan frames to hold tensioned mylar. These will be rectangles that are 4 feet high and about 10 inches wide. the frames have a center cutout of 46" x 8". The frames are routered out of a single piece. A pair of the frames are glued to a piece of stretched mylar with aluminum traces etched in place. The pair of sandwiched frames will be fairly rigid, but the front and back magnet holders are the structural rigidity for the entire panel.
the magnet holders are based on easy to machine pieces of bar stock. I have a small milling machine and am designing the pieces so that I can handle them on my small machine, but also so I don't have to if you cut them carefully. The magnet holder assemblies are a series of vertical bars with magnets glued on the backs. There are horizontal bars that will attach to the lexan frames.
The traces on the mylar will be formed by gluing a solid piece of aluminum foil or metalized mylar (still checking the metalized mylar feasibility). I'll mask off the traces with tape and wipe on ferric chloride (circuit board etchant), which etches away aluminum very nicely.
I've already got a reasonable ribbon design drawn up in Autodesk Inventor, and I'm now working on the midrange portion.
The idea is that I'll use a DIY ribbon tweeter from say 4K up, these planar magnetic drivers from 100 (ish) Hz to 4KHz, and a cone driver in an enclosure under the panels. It will use an active crossover much like my ESL's.
he real thing that is giving me pause is the cost of the magnets. The ribbon drivers use like $400 worth of magnets for a pair of 48" long units. And the midrange panels look like they will use like 4 times that many. I'm seriously thinking of reducing the magnetic drive elements but I have to make sure that I have enough sensitivity. I'll be building a prototype panel this summer.
Sheldon
the magnet holders are based on easy to machine pieces of bar stock. I have a small milling machine and am designing the pieces so that I can handle them on my small machine, but also so I don't have to if you cut them carefully. The magnet holder assemblies are a series of vertical bars with magnets glued on the backs. There are horizontal bars that will attach to the lexan frames.
The traces on the mylar will be formed by gluing a solid piece of aluminum foil or metalized mylar (still checking the metalized mylar feasibility). I'll mask off the traces with tape and wipe on ferric chloride (circuit board etchant), which etches away aluminum very nicely.
I've already got a reasonable ribbon design drawn up in Autodesk Inventor, and I'm now working on the midrange portion.
The idea is that I'll use a DIY ribbon tweeter from say 4K up, these planar magnetic drivers from 100 (ish) Hz to 4KHz, and a cone driver in an enclosure under the panels. It will use an active crossover much like my ESL's.
he real thing that is giving me pause is the cost of the magnets. The ribbon drivers use like $400 worth of magnets for a pair of 48" long units. And the midrange panels look like they will use like 4 times that many. I'm seriously thinking of reducing the magnetic drive elements but I have to make sure that I have enough sensitivity. I'll be building a prototype panel this summer.
Sheldon
As was suggested previously, the ferric chloride won't directly bother mylar or kapton. I do seem to recall running into problems, though, when I used it full strength to etch away aluminum foil that I had glued to plastic diaphragm material. I think the aluminum and ferric chloride reacted a bit too fast, and the reaction was so exothermic that the plastic simply melted. It's been more years than I care to admit since I was playing with those prototypes, and something like kapton might be able to take the stress, but just to be sure you might try a few quick tests to get the concentration right before diving in with large pieces of aluminum and diaphragm material.
Few
Few
Few said:
There's a trick for this that jewlers use when etching.
1. Make a weak ferric chloride solution - for example, take the RadioShack stuff and add a bit more water, say 2 parts ferric chloride to 1 part water.
2. Make an etchant bath in a shallow container - Tupperware works well.
3. Lay the ribbon so that it's suspended in the ferric chloride, so that the face to be etched is facing downwards.
4. Wait a few hours.
The etching will occur very slowly. However, the aluminum salts that are produced will fall to the bottom, and you'll get a very neat etching.
Are you talking about making a full range planar say from 20hz to 20khz? All in one baffle or a combination of ribbon tweeter, midrange and bass? I have built several full range planar speakers using both ferrites and neos. Ranging in size from 7ft high to 21" high the small ones used neos and the 7ft high one used ferrites. By the way the small ones using neos were 3db louder.!!!
My 3-way "hybrid" has just developed into a 4-way
15" woofer.......6" midwoofer ........8" ribbon (1" wide).......4" ribbon (1/4" wide)
Have almost all parts and just need finishing design and do some woodwork
It came true when I discouvered that SuperMagnetMan had some cheap bargains on some mighty strong neo bundles with cosmetic faults
They should be perfect for the 8" with wider magnet gap
And I am making some nice round curved yokes for them too
And a few other tricks
I have had LaFolia fullrange ribbon and know what they can do - so I hope to be back on track now
15" woofer.......6" midwoofer ........8" ribbon (1" wide).......4" ribbon (1/4" wide)
Have almost all parts and just need finishing design and do some woodwork
It came true when I discouvered that SuperMagnetMan had some cheap bargains on some mighty strong neo bundles with cosmetic faults
They should be perfect for the 8" with wider magnet gap
And I am making some nice round curved yokes for them too
And a few other tricks
I have had LaFolia fullrange ribbon and know what they can do - so I hope to be back on track now
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