BRING ON THE GRAPHS!!!
Example.
I made a list of midrange candidates for a project.
I did blind tests with others and scored the results.
I also spent a few months auditioning the drivers with
all sorts of music.
Results:
The driver with the best graphs scored dead last and wasn't
desired at all.
The drivers with the worse graphs won the contest.
You need to spend more time in the garage playing
with drivers to learn how they sound and spend less time
reading about them.
Raw data tells one tale, but won't tell all the tales.
What exactly do you want to do ? I have no idea. Are you researching trying to find the best in the world drivers to build
the best speaker in the world? lol ......
Example.
I made a list of midrange candidates for a project.
I did blind tests with others and scored the results.
I also spent a few months auditioning the drivers with
all sorts of music.
Results:
The driver with the best graphs scored dead last and wasn't
desired at all.
The drivers with the worse graphs won the contest.
You need to spend more time in the garage playing
with drivers to learn how they sound and spend less time
reading about them.
Raw data tells one tale, but won't tell all the tales.
What exactly do you want to do ? I have no idea. Are you researching trying to find the best in the world drivers to build
the best speaker in the world? lol ......
good example here's another...
years ago my expartner anI took the voice coil from a head phone (3/8" dia) and crazy glued it to the centre of a 8,5x11 inch piece of glass held in a small picture frame (thin foa around the edges). We then jigged up a horizontal strut across the frame to position the pot magnet in place over the VC. This is as lo tech as it gets right? Well as you would expect no bass or mid bass and lo output to speak of either go figure. Play a piano recording on that thing and it messed with your mind. No need to wonder how it measured (like crap) but the sound was astounding. So yes I agree play with the designs that you can resonate with that you have the where with all to manipulate and see what you can do. All the important tweaking of your design can be done by ear. Have some fun and get a handle on the kind of drivers that you like. Otherwise you will spend the rest of your life going in circles following measurements. Regards Moray James.
years ago my expartner anI took the voice coil from a head phone (3/8" dia) and crazy glued it to the centre of a 8,5x11 inch piece of glass held in a small picture frame (thin foa around the edges). We then jigged up a horizontal strut across the frame to position the pot magnet in place over the VC. This is as lo tech as it gets right? Well as you would expect no bass or mid bass and lo output to speak of either go figure. Play a piano recording on that thing and it messed with your mind. No need to wonder how it measured (like crap) but the sound was astounding. So yes I agree play with the designs that you can resonate with that you have the where with all to manipulate and see what you can do. All the important tweaking of your design can be done by ear. Have some fun and get a handle on the kind of drivers that you like. Otherwise you will spend the rest of your life going in circles following measurements. Regards Moray James.
i am 100% with you guys on all that
and I AM already experiencing as much as i can do
( serious time restrictions ..working 80+ hours/week now )
this is what i just came up with this week :
will be in infinite baffle ( oversized closet )
3" veravox and a 12" shiva
it just sounds wonderfull compared to my old Fisher prices under em
So there is nothing we can do with graphs ?
i thought that we could at least compare stuff that gets out of the drivers directly ..
like distortion, decay ...
i am disapointed ...
Can we at least summarize the different pros and cons of each technologies ??
( so that i feel that this thread wasn't for nothing? )
using measurable facts
( nothing after the sound gets out of the drivers = don't even mention room stuff .. it has nothing to do with the driver iteself )
and I AM already experiencing as much as i can do
( serious time restrictions ..working 80+ hours/week now )
this is what i just came up with this week :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
will be in infinite baffle ( oversized closet )
3" veravox and a 12" shiva
it just sounds wonderfull compared to my old Fisher prices under em
So there is nothing we can do with graphs ?
i thought that we could at least compare stuff that gets out of the drivers directly ..
like distortion, decay ...
i am disapointed ...
Can we at least summarize the different pros and cons of each technologies ??
( so that i feel that this thread wasn't for nothing?
)using measurable facts
( nothing after the sound gets out of the drivers = don't even mention room stuff .. it has nothing to do with the driver iteself )
Re: I may stand corrected but I'am not sure
Indeed, but higher efficiency *IN ISOLATION* isn't a pure indicator of distortion, which is what I said. Like I say, I'm all for high surface area radiators and horns and whatnot- but increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily require an increase in surface area, which I attribute to be a big part of a low distortion system. For a very good antiexample- compare a higher efficiency 1" dome (there are plenty in the low-mid 90s) to the Eton AMT tweeter at about 85dB W/M (very low distortion fwiw): much more surface area, and much less efficient. So it can go either way. Efficiency is made easier by big, but big can be a worthy goal in and of itself, carrying with it many of the advantages normally prescribed to high efficiency.
So we agree on what kind of speakers to use (mostly) but my point is that simply raising efficiency does NOT reduce distortion, except when thermal issues come into play, at which point, you're a ninny anyway: if you can see the woofer pumping, don't bother listening
moray james said:
Indeed, but higher efficiency *IN ISOLATION* isn't a pure indicator of distortion, which is what I said. Like I say, I'm all for high surface area radiators and horns and whatnot- but increasing efficiency doesn't necessarily require an increase in surface area, which I attribute to be a big part of a low distortion system. For a very good antiexample- compare a higher efficiency 1" dome (there are plenty in the low-mid 90s) to the Eton AMT tweeter at about 85dB W/M (very low distortion fwiw): much more surface area, and much less efficient. So it can go either way. Efficiency is made easier by big, but big can be a worthy goal in and of itself, carrying with it many of the advantages normally prescribed to high efficiency.
So we agree on what kind of speakers to use (mostly) but my point is that simply raising efficiency does NOT reduce distortion, except when thermal issues come into play, at which point, you're a ninny anyway: if you can see the woofer pumping, don't bother listening
this is also not valid
since the use of different devices can probably give the required dispersion for any ( or almost ) drivers
like what Manger are using as exemple ..
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
of course it says and other ..
this includes cones and plasma ...and many others
(everything that actually makes sound in a controlled manner could be used i guess )
thing is that using multiple drivers of one technology VS 1 driver of another doesn't have to do with this ..
u can use a full range cone and have the same hz range than using an ESL nah ?? ( well probably the ESL will go higher.. unless the dome is made for that )
but if we compare 2 drivers at the same output power
( db ) at the same frequency ( assuming that they are both made to operate at that frequency )
multi way and room behavior are out of this topic's goal
here is a direct question then ..
how can be compared a 1m square ESL at 10K KHZ
to a 1"dome at the same frequency
one having 10o+ times the same surface
at equivalent db output ( let's say 90db at 1 meter assuming anechoic room )
this includes cones and plasma ...and many others
(everything that actually makes sound in a controlled manner could be used i guess )
thing is that using multiple drivers of one technology VS 1 driver of another doesn't have to do with this ..
u can use a full range cone and have the same hz range than using an ESL nah ?? ( well probably the ESL will go higher.. unless the dome is made for that )
but if we compare 2 drivers at the same output power
( db ) at the same frequency ( assuming that they are both made to operate at that frequency )
multi way and room behavior are out of this topic's goal
here is a direct question then ..
how can be compared a 1m square ESL at 10K KHZ
to a 1"dome at the same frequency
one having 10o+ times the same surface
at equivalent db output ( let's say 90db at 1 meter assuming anechoic room )
>( nothing after the sound gets out of the drivers = don't even mention room stuff .. it has nothing to do with the driver iteself )
Not true. Every driver has a dispersion pattern, it doesn't radiate the same in all directions and the response is different at different angles. The "room stuff" *will* come back at you and how it comes back depends very much on the driver itself. That's one of the points of line source drivers (cylindrical radiation patterns), they have similar response in most directions, particularly dipole types, and also do not project significant sound upward or downward, eliminating two of the room surfaces from being first reflectors. Horns are directional and generally project little behind themselves, but the response usually changes quite a bit at off angles. Panels beam energy so that most is going forward (and/or backward) at least in upper frequencies, which limits how much comes back at you via reflections. Domes and small cones tend to radiate hemispherically (until high frequencies) so they reflect off everything in sight.
The room effects depend a lot on the driver type. If you are measuring a driver, you are not likely accomplishing much unless you consider radiation pattern as well.
>how can be compared a 1m square ESL at 10K KHZ
to a 1"dome at the same frequency
one having 10o+ times the same surface
at equivalent db output ( let's say 90db at 1 meter assuming anechoic room )
What characteristic(s) do you want to compare?
Not true. Every driver has a dispersion pattern, it doesn't radiate the same in all directions and the response is different at different angles. The "room stuff" *will* come back at you and how it comes back depends very much on the driver itself. That's one of the points of line source drivers (cylindrical radiation patterns), they have similar response in most directions, particularly dipole types, and also do not project significant sound upward or downward, eliminating two of the room surfaces from being first reflectors. Horns are directional and generally project little behind themselves, but the response usually changes quite a bit at off angles. Panels beam energy so that most is going forward (and/or backward) at least in upper frequencies, which limits how much comes back at you via reflections. Domes and small cones tend to radiate hemispherically (until high frequencies) so they reflect off everything in sight.
The room effects depend a lot on the driver type. If you are measuring a driver, you are not likely accomplishing much unless you consider radiation pattern as well.
>how can be compared a 1m square ESL at 10K KHZ
to a 1"dome at the same frequency
one having 10o+ times the same surface
at equivalent db output ( let's say 90db at 1 meter assuming anechoic room )
What characteristic(s) do you want to compare?
>all that can be dealt with using room treatments ..
so it doesn't mather directly to the driver output quality
Nonsense. Room treatments can help only a LITTLE bit, ask anyone who has ever measured speakers. No room treatment other than full anechoic chamber absorbers (better start with a big room, because the walls will have to grow in about a meter each!) will remove the echoes.
>repeat after mean ... output qualities
(?"repeat after me"?)
Radiation pattern *is* an "output quality". In the opinion of some of us, it is the most important one. But you can't come up with a number for it. Frequency response can be fixed or altered by equalization. You need to change speaker types to appreciably change radiation pattern.
so it doesn't mather directly to the driver output quality
Nonsense. Room treatments can help only a LITTLE bit, ask anyone who has ever measured speakers. No room treatment other than full anechoic chamber absorbers (better start with a big room, because the walls will have to grow in about a meter each!) will remove the echoes.
>repeat after mean ... output qualities
(?"repeat after me"?)
Radiation pattern *is* an "output quality". In the opinion of some of us, it is the most important one. But you can't come up with a number for it. Frequency response can be fixed or altered by equalization. You need to change speaker types to appreciably change radiation pattern.
Not a definite answer but an example for what I think is a good technology mix:
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=315
A magnetostat just as supertweeter where transparency is more important than neutrality, x-over point and dispersion bottleneck far away from the 2kHz region, coaxial mounting for good alignment, mid-high driver dynamic like a vifa ring tweeter for better THD than planars, lower x-over at 800Hz where it could be combined with a 10" woofer without dispersion problems.
Yust low power handling, similar Manger, does anybody know how they compare in price?
http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=315
A magnetostat just as supertweeter where transparency is more important than neutrality, x-over point and dispersion bottleneck far away from the 2kHz region, coaxial mounting for good alignment, mid-high driver dynamic like a vifa ring tweeter for better THD than planars, lower x-over at 800Hz where it could be combined with a 10" woofer without dispersion problems.
Yust low power handling, similar Manger, does anybody know how they compare in price?
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