I am building a DIY ribbon this summer and would like some suggestions as there isnt much information out there (other than the few informative threads on here)
I'd like to build a ribbon that rivals the LCY 130 (horizontal and vertical dispersion) and a ribbon that is able to be crossed over comfortably with an 8
I'd like this to be a no-bars held project (ideal ribbon design, no compromises), as I have full access to CNCs, lathes and the like
I'd like to build a ribbon that rivals the LCY 130 (horizontal and vertical dispersion) and a ribbon that is able to be crossed over comfortably with an 8
I'd like this to be a no-bars held project (ideal ribbon design, no compromises), as I have full access to CNCs, lathes and the like
Hi thadman,
The DIY archives contain all the technical info you should need, with many well documented examples and helpful websites. You could proabably spend a week studying this material. You may want to give some consideration to a long ribbon linesource during your study.
Downloading the FEMM magnetic field simulation program will be valuable if you want to do a unique design instead of a clone.
N50 grade magnets are near the highest production stength. BIG is good.
Thin aluminum foil between 5 to 10 microns is commonly used by most DIY'ers.
The DIY archives contain all the technical info you should need, with many well documented examples and helpful websites. You could proabably spend a week studying this material. You may want to give some consideration to a long ribbon linesource during your study.
Downloading the FEMM magnetic field simulation program will be valuable if you want to do a unique design instead of a clone.
N50 grade magnets are near the highest production stength. BIG is good.
Thin aluminum foil between 5 to 10 microns is commonly used by most DIY'ers.
I've spent a week or so searching over the forums for diy ribbons and have learned a great deal, that is mainly why im attempting to build my own.
Do longer ribbons have any difficulty producing the higher frequencies?
Would I have issues if I ran the ribbons dipole and the midbass-midrange (50-1000/1200) monopole?
Is there any optimal ribbon width or length where you start to meet diminishing returns?
Is the main goal of a ribbon to create the most powerful uniform magnetic presence in the gap?
Do longer ribbons have any difficulty producing the higher frequencies?
Would I have issues if I ran the ribbons dipole and the midbass-midrange (50-1000/1200) monopole?
Is there any optimal ribbon width or length where you start to meet diminishing returns?
Is the main goal of a ribbon to create the most powerful uniform magnetic presence in the gap?
I have to check with my distributor, but the highest ive found was N55.
Is there any benefit to using below 5 micron aluminum (I know LCY uses 6 micron and an average aluminum wrapper is around 15 micron)? Are there any other types of material that are good, light weight conductors that are candidates for ribbon use?
Is there any benefit to using below 5 micron aluminum (I know LCY uses 6 micron and an average aluminum wrapper is around 15 micron)? Are there any other types of material that are good, light weight conductors that are candidates for ribbon use?
>>Do longer ribbons have any difficulty producing the higher frequencies?
A small area ribbon is capable of producing the highest frequencies, well over 50Khz, but you may need to add a waveguide or horn to get the room SPL you desire. A well designed long tweeter ribbon can easily reach 30Khz with well over 110db SPL in most rooms. I've posted the simple equations for ribbon efficiency several times in the archieves.
>>Would I have issues if I ran the ribbons dipole and the midbass-midrange (50-1000/1200) monopole?
I favor running the tweeter ribbon as a monopole to reduce short delay reflections that can "falsify" the sound stage. Dipole designers like Linkwitz also favor monopole tweeters. A monopole ribbon tweeter requires extensive absorption material in the rear cavity. Some like the "spacious" presentation of a dipole tweeter. Some describe dipole sound as "you are there" to explain the synthetic ambiance from upper fequency rear reflections. "They are here" is a pharse often used to describe the performer centric soundstage of a good monopole speaker. Some claim that dipoles offer more degree of room tuning than monopoles. Dipole vs. monopole midrange/midbass is like religion.. you will have to try both and decide for yourself.
>>Is there any optimal ribbon width or length where you start to meet diminishing returns?
The ribbon width will set the upper frequency both as the wavelength approaches the ribbon width, and because wider width adds mass while the gap magnetic field goes down.. a squared affect. There are equations to determine the minimum ribbon volume sweep to generate the desired SPL in your room. A full floor-to-ceiling is the other extreme.
>>Is the main goal of a ribbon to create the most powerful uniform magnetic presence in the gap?
The main goal of the motor design is to create the most powerful and uniform magnetic field in the gap. One can experiment with many different ribbon construction options to get the pharsing they like best. Just like two musical instruments.
>>Is there any benefit to using below 5 micron aluminum (I know LCY uses 6 micron and an average aluminum wrapper is around 15 micron)? Are there any other types of material that are good, light weight conductors that are candidates for ribbon use?
Ribbon efficiency increases with lower mass, but AL foil below 5 microns if very fragile. Magnapan uses a 2-2.5u tweeter ribbon which is 0.2" wide. You can read AudioAsylum notes to judge how robust it is.
The archives describe mylar-aluminum ribbons which some find smoother sounding and more robust. You can get aluminum sputtered onto mylar or polyimide(take a capacitor apart), or glue AL to mylar as described in the archives.
A small area ribbon is capable of producing the highest frequencies, well over 50Khz, but you may need to add a waveguide or horn to get the room SPL you desire. A well designed long tweeter ribbon can easily reach 30Khz with well over 110db SPL in most rooms. I've posted the simple equations for ribbon efficiency several times in the archieves.
>>Would I have issues if I ran the ribbons dipole and the midbass-midrange (50-1000/1200) monopole?
I favor running the tweeter ribbon as a monopole to reduce short delay reflections that can "falsify" the sound stage. Dipole designers like Linkwitz also favor monopole tweeters. A monopole ribbon tweeter requires extensive absorption material in the rear cavity. Some like the "spacious" presentation of a dipole tweeter. Some describe dipole sound as "you are there" to explain the synthetic ambiance from upper fequency rear reflections. "They are here" is a pharse often used to describe the performer centric soundstage of a good monopole speaker. Some claim that dipoles offer more degree of room tuning than monopoles. Dipole vs. monopole midrange/midbass is like religion.. you will have to try both and decide for yourself.
>>Is there any optimal ribbon width or length where you start to meet diminishing returns?
The ribbon width will set the upper frequency both as the wavelength approaches the ribbon width, and because wider width adds mass while the gap magnetic field goes down.. a squared affect. There are equations to determine the minimum ribbon volume sweep to generate the desired SPL in your room. A full floor-to-ceiling is the other extreme.
>>Is the main goal of a ribbon to create the most powerful uniform magnetic presence in the gap?
The main goal of the motor design is to create the most powerful and uniform magnetic field in the gap. One can experiment with many different ribbon construction options to get the pharsing they like best. Just like two musical instruments.
>>Is there any benefit to using below 5 micron aluminum (I know LCY uses 6 micron and an average aluminum wrapper is around 15 micron)? Are there any other types of material that are good, light weight conductors that are candidates for ribbon use?
Ribbon efficiency increases with lower mass, but AL foil below 5 microns if very fragile. Magnapan uses a 2-2.5u tweeter ribbon which is 0.2" wide. You can read AudioAsylum notes to judge how robust it is.
The archives describe mylar-aluminum ribbons which some find smoother sounding and more robust. You can get aluminum sputtered onto mylar or polyimide(take a capacitor apart), or glue AL to mylar as described in the archives.
>>how efficient would an 8 foot ribbon be?
The simple ribbon efficiency equations have been posted several times in the archieves. For a tweeter where excursion is not an issue:
A=ribbon area meter^2
B=magnetic field in Telsa
%= percent of ribbon which conducts current(100=100%)
m= mass of ribbon in grams
Efficiency = A^2 * B^2 * % / m
spl 112.2 + 10*(LOG(efficiency)/LOG(10))
senS effeciency + LOG(8/resistance)/LOG(10)
>>8 foot 2" ribbon (I'd like to get to 100-200hz with this)
For a +/- 0.1" maximum excursion a monopole ribbon would reach max SPL of 110db at 420 Hz. A dipole ribbon would reach max SPL of 110db at 320Hz. The original Full Range Apogee speakers had a 2" wide x 84" long midrange ribbon that was crossed at 320Hz to the bass panel.
>>Where could I purchase Mylar Aluminum ribbon?
Check the archieves.. especially Swedish ribbon, and take apart a film/foil capacitor.
All the info you need to clone these ribbons is in the archieves. The FEMM program will allow you to create a unique design, or optimize the iron-magnet motor circuit
The simple ribbon efficiency equations have been posted several times in the archieves. For a tweeter where excursion is not an issue:
A=ribbon area meter^2
B=magnetic field in Telsa
%= percent of ribbon which conducts current(100=100%)
m= mass of ribbon in grams
Efficiency = A^2 * B^2 * % / m
spl 112.2 + 10*(LOG(efficiency)/LOG(10))
senS effeciency + LOG(8/resistance)/LOG(10)
>>8 foot 2" ribbon (I'd like to get to 100-200hz with this)
For a +/- 0.1" maximum excursion a monopole ribbon would reach max SPL of 110db at 420 Hz. A dipole ribbon would reach max SPL of 110db at 320Hz. The original Full Range Apogee speakers had a 2" wide x 84" long midrange ribbon that was crossed at 320Hz to the bass panel.
>>Where could I purchase Mylar Aluminum ribbon?
Check the archieves.. especially Swedish ribbon, and take apart a film/foil capacitor.
All the info you need to clone these ribbons is in the archieves. The FEMM program will allow you to create a unique design, or optimize the iron-magnet motor circuit
>>how bad is the horizontal dispersion of a 2" wide ribbon?
2" is a wavelength of ~ 6,775 Hz. There should be very little beaming if you cross a 2" ribbon below 3,385 Hz, AND have a well designed front bezel or waveguide to remove pole edge diffraction, plus large radius cabinet corners.
The design of the pole pieces, rear cavity, absorption material, front bezel/waveguide will have a large affect on the on-axis as well as off-axis sound stage.
2" is a wavelength of ~ 6,775 Hz. There should be very little beaming if you cross a 2" ribbon below 3,385 Hz, AND have a well designed front bezel or waveguide to remove pole edge diffraction, plus large radius cabinet corners.
The design of the pole pieces, rear cavity, absorption material, front bezel/waveguide will have a large affect on the on-axis as well as off-axis sound stage.
how much???
would 3.5 micron aluminum-mylar suffice? I know its a little thin, but Im assuming its a little more durable thanks to the mylar. It comes in sheets, I'd just have to cut it to width/length.
What would be the optimal xover point between the 2 ribbons and width? I want the best dispersion possible. (1/2" 20k-1500hz, 2" 1500hz-500hz?)
I'd like to build 7~ foot line arrays and I need to fit a ~10" midbass/bass at the bottom, so each ribbon will be about 60-72".
Are there any 10s that can extend to 500hz? The Peerless XLS 8 comes to mind, but those are 8s. How do the 10s fair? Are there any other drivers? I'd like to extend to at least 40hz.
would 3.5 micron aluminum-mylar suffice? I know its a little thin, but Im assuming its a little more durable thanks to the mylar. It comes in sheets, I'd just have to cut it to width/length.
What would be the optimal xover point between the 2 ribbons and width? I want the best dispersion possible. (1/2" 20k-1500hz, 2" 1500hz-500hz?)
I'd like to build 7~ foot line arrays and I need to fit a ~10" midbass/bass at the bottom, so each ribbon will be about 60-72".
Are there any 10s that can extend to 500hz? The Peerless XLS 8 comes to mind, but those are 8s. How do the 10s fair? Are there any other drivers? I'd like to extend to at least 40hz.
>>I'd like to build 7~ foot line arrays and I need to fit a ~10" midbass/bass at the bottom, so each ribbon will be about 60-72".
If you are this ambitious and well funded, consider 90" tweeter and midrange ribbon linesources next to a 90" line array of eight 10" woofers. This will give a more uniform wave launch than putting one woofer crossed at the bottom of the ribbons, especially with a crossover frequency right in the middle of human voice.
>>What would be the optimal xover point between the 2 ribbons and width? I want the best dispersion possible. (1/2" 20k-1500hz, 2" 1500hz-500hz?)
You should listen to different crossover slopes to see what your ears like. I like getting as much of the human voice on the midrange ribbon as possible, and use steep LR8 slopes, accepting their limitations until full digital DIY is available. With steep slopes, 3K/200 may be possible and 3K/300 a safe target, based upon your ribbon design.
>>would 3.5 micron aluminum-mylar suffice
This could work for the tweeter, but I suspect it would be too fragile for the midrange ribbon which has to move a fair amount of air to generate respectable SPLs. I typically design speakers to maintain low distortion and totally reliable behavior up to 110db @1m. Some folks think 20db of headroom is required for transients.
If you can get a few sample BIG NdFeB magnets and several different ribbon materials to play with you will better understand the options and challenges. A great motor is mainly money. A great ribbon requires a lot of invention and experimentation.
The magic of high efficiency (95-105db/watt) ribbon linesources is their ability to generate goosebumps at very low SPLs.
If you are this ambitious and well funded, consider 90" tweeter and midrange ribbon linesources next to a 90" line array of eight 10" woofers. This will give a more uniform wave launch than putting one woofer crossed at the bottom of the ribbons, especially with a crossover frequency right in the middle of human voice.
>>What would be the optimal xover point between the 2 ribbons and width? I want the best dispersion possible. (1/2" 20k-1500hz, 2" 1500hz-500hz?)
You should listen to different crossover slopes to see what your ears like. I like getting as much of the human voice on the midrange ribbon as possible, and use steep LR8 slopes, accepting their limitations until full digital DIY is available. With steep slopes, 3K/200 may be possible and 3K/300 a safe target, based upon your ribbon design.
>>would 3.5 micron aluminum-mylar suffice
This could work for the tweeter, but I suspect it would be too fragile for the midrange ribbon which has to move a fair amount of air to generate respectable SPLs. I typically design speakers to maintain low distortion and totally reliable behavior up to 110db @1m. Some folks think 20db of headroom is required for transients.
If you can get a few sample BIG NdFeB magnets and several different ribbon materials to play with you will better understand the options and challenges. A great motor is mainly money. A great ribbon requires a lot of invention and experimentation.
The magic of high efficiency (95-105db/watt) ribbon linesources is their ability to generate goosebumps at very low SPLs.
Im on a budget for the setup, I've just got some important friends.
I've got full access to CNCs, Lathes, waterjets, woodworking shop, (free magnets), etc
I am limited on speakers though
Im probably going to use a Behringer 4-way xover and a Behringer dual 31-band equalizer (itd be like $200 for the pair) and a pair of T-amps for the ribbons (since im only going to be needing 1-2, maybe 4-8 watts)
thats what ive decided on now
I'd be open to building my own tube amps, if they were ~100 to build (I only need 2-8 watts at a low impendance)
are there any good reads to help me with the design?
Does anybody know where to purchase "Ribbon loudspeakers: Theory and Construction by J.V. Verhagen"?
I'd like to have the best overall dispersion, wouldnt the .25" ribbon absolutely annihilate the 2" ribbon in horizontal dispersion? even if it was crossed low?
Whats the trick to trimming the ribbon width wise?
I've got full access to CNCs, Lathes, waterjets, woodworking shop, (free magnets), etc
I am limited on speakers though
Im probably going to use a Behringer 4-way xover and a Behringer dual 31-band equalizer (itd be like $200 for the pair) and a pair of T-amps for the ribbons (since im only going to be needing 1-2, maybe 4-8 watts)
thats what ive decided on now
I'd be open to building my own tube amps, if they were ~100 to build (I only need 2-8 watts at a low impendance)
are there any good reads to help me with the design?
Does anybody know where to purchase "Ribbon loudspeakers: Theory and Construction by J.V. Verhagen"?
I'd like to have the best overall dispersion, wouldnt the .25" ribbon absolutely annihilate the 2" ribbon in horizontal dispersion? even if it was crossed low?
Whats the trick to trimming the ribbon width wise?
Is there any point in building a line array thats much taller than the human ear? I figured 18" up to 90" would cover any and all people in the room.
The line arrays are already going to be standing ~8 foot with the base and the 10 on the bottom.
If I used a dipole design, how far would the rear have to be from the walls?
The line arrays are already going to be standing ~8 foot with the base and the 10 on the bottom.
If I used a dipole design, how far would the rear have to be from the walls?
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