Hi,
I put a Neo8 in to a baffle as pictured, a bass driver was also added.
It then had a small enclosure behind it. About 5" wide by 9" high and 2" deep and filled with foam.
The baffle simulation I did suggested a smooth 3dB rise around 1KHz, like the B&G PDF file did with their 9"x9" baffle.
However, I seem to be getting some odd results. A rise, where it starts to roll-off on the other measurements I have seen!
Could this be caused by the small enclosure? Should I be using it open baffle?
It sounds kinda boxy and pretty sibilant and harsh, which I suspect is due to the huge peak around 10.5KHz, which is usually notch filtered out.
Anyway thoughts appreciated.
I put a Neo8 in to a baffle as pictured, a bass driver was also added.
It then had a small enclosure behind it. About 5" wide by 9" high and 2" deep and filled with foam.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
The baffle simulation I did suggested a smooth 3dB rise around 1KHz, like the B&G PDF file did with their 9"x9" baffle.
However, I seem to be getting some odd results. A rise, where it starts to roll-off on the other measurements I have seen!
Could this be caused by the small enclosure? Should I be using it open baffle?
It sounds kinda boxy and pretty sibilant and harsh, which I suspect is due to the huge peak around 10.5KHz, which is usually notch filtered out.
Anyway thoughts appreciated.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
a larger deeper enclosure may tame that mid-bass peak.
Can't comment on the sibilance; likely due the natual peak shown in the BG's documentation. If you follow BGs notch filter recommendations, that MAY fix the sibilance and harshness.
I thought these WERE open baffle drivers; just screw to the front baffle!
Tony
PS you may want to follow an older "busy" post on these drivers!
Can't comment on the sibilance; likely due the natual peak shown in the BG's documentation. If you follow BGs notch filter recommendations, that MAY fix the sibilance and harshness.
I thought these WERE open baffle drivers; just screw to the front baffle!
Tony
PS you may want to follow an older "busy" post on these drivers!
It was indeed due to the small enclosure. I have put them in an open baffle config now and they sound much better. Currently tuning the Xover. They sound good, but I have to say I'm surprised they get such comments about their high quality, they don't sound that brilliant. Great imaging though!
I have taken some measurements for you. They were done in close proximity (30cm) and at about 30degreese off-axis. I used a 10ms gate on a 5second MSL recording. Frankly, I think the Neo8 is crap.
Neo8 on a 9" x 9" baffle
Neo8 with high cut
Neo8 with high cut and 6dB But Xover at 1.6KHz
Now that looks quite good doesn't it? Pretty flat and could cross with a woofer at about 700Hz with a high order Xover.
BUT, you now put the thing with baffle, on top of and in line with the front of the woofer cab.
Hmm.. oh dear!
You try moving the Neo8 baffle back 1"
Now I tried doing similar EQ so it was as flat as possible (I know that doesn’t equal good sound but its better than huge suckouts and peaks in random places) while on top of the woofer cab and it did get quite good but still had a peak around 950Hz. Lucky for me the Dayton 7" aluminium woofer I am also using has a slight peak at about 950Hz as well. So, I crossed it over just right and with an inverted phase so that it counteracted the peak of the Neo8. Well, this was as flat as it was going to get. Sorry I don't have a measurment.
The tonality was pretty good, though lacking upper treble. Something I am pretty sensitive too as I hear very high. But, even so, it just doesn't sound very good. Vocals and imaging are not bad, but no better than any other 'good' speaker and it is pretty bad at most other stuff!
Though the Dayton woofer does go nice and low with tight bass. My next plan is to try a single Jordan JXR6 crossing to the Dayton at about 350-500Hz. Any thoughts on how this might turn out?
Thank-you for your time!
Neo8 on a 9" x 9" baffle
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Neo8 with high cut
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Neo8 with high cut and 6dB But Xover at 1.6KHz
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now that looks quite good doesn't it? Pretty flat and could cross with a woofer at about 700Hz with a high order Xover.
BUT, you now put the thing with baffle, on top of and in line with the front of the woofer cab.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hmm.. oh dear!
You try moving the Neo8 baffle back 1"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now I tried doing similar EQ so it was as flat as possible (I know that doesn’t equal good sound but its better than huge suckouts and peaks in random places) while on top of the woofer cab and it did get quite good but still had a peak around 950Hz. Lucky for me the Dayton 7" aluminium woofer I am also using has a slight peak at about 950Hz as well. So, I crossed it over just right and with an inverted phase so that it counteracted the peak of the Neo8. Well, this was as flat as it was going to get. Sorry I don't have a measurment.
The tonality was pretty good, though lacking upper treble. Something I am pretty sensitive too as I hear very high. But, even so, it just doesn't sound very good. Vocals and imaging are not bad, but no better than any other 'good' speaker and it is pretty bad at most other stuff!
Though the Dayton woofer does go nice and low with tight bass. My next plan is to try a single Jordan JXR6 crossing to the Dayton at about 350-500Hz. Any thoughts on how this might turn out?
Thank-you for your time!
I just took some measurements of the Neo8 as flat as I can get it on top of the speaker.
Now I integrated the woofer with a 24dB Butterworth Xover. Not very easy to do passive but never mind for now. Oh, with this higher order Xover there was no need to invert phase to cancel the 950Hz peak. It just popped on the end of the Neo8's response. At these lower freq my room will start to show itself BTW so ignore below 300Hz.
Now a measurement at my listening position.
How does it sound? Well.... Okay I suppose it is not BAD. But it is not GOOD by any means. I think the woofer needs to be crossed lower down and the Neo8's frequency response is dire.
I suppose it could work quite well in a centre speaker with no baffle above or below it and small midrange only speakers on either side.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now I integrated the woofer with a 24dB Butterworth Xover. Not very easy to do passive but never mind for now. Oh, with this higher order Xover there was no need to invert phase to cancel the 950Hz peak. It just popped on the end of the Neo8's response. At these lower freq my room will start to show itself BTW so ignore below 300Hz.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Now a measurement at my listening position.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
How does it sound? Well.... Okay I suppose it is not BAD. But it is not GOOD by any means. I think the woofer needs to be crossed lower down and the Neo8's frequency response is dire.
I suppose it could work quite well in a centre speaker with no baffle above or below it and small midrange only speakers on either side.
other than the lack of freq. response linearity.. could you describe what is both wrong with it and right with it? I have a feeling that mechancial resonance is kreeping into the audible range and causing some problems, but I'd like to get your subjective opinion..
also what type of amplifer are you using.. specifically does it provide high dampening factor (via low output imepance) or not?
is the imaging still great, or mearly not bad? what about other aspects?
thanks!
also what type of amplifer are you using.. specifically does it provide high dampening factor (via low output imepance) or not?
is the imaging still great, or mearly not bad? what about other aspects?
thanks!
Well, the main thing is the FR linearity with the Neo8. Even after EQ it just doesn’t sound right. I can hear the lack around 2.5KHz.
It also just sounds confused. I think the main reason for this is the woofer isn't very good above about 400Hz and while the Neo8 can cross pretty low (lower than other 'tweeters' anyway). Put that and the dire linearity together an the speaker just doesn’t sound good lol.
I think for these reasons a JXR6 (anyone want to sell a pair?) would work well as it is very linear and can cross extremely low. SPL might be a problem but I’ll have to compromise between Xover and SPL.
Oh, the amp for the tweeters is a class A Monarchy Audio 70 thingy. Woofers is a level matched Technics. Not great but not bad and its not the cause of the confusion lower down.
It also just sounds confused. I think the main reason for this is the woofer isn't very good above about 400Hz and while the Neo8 can cross pretty low (lower than other 'tweeters' anyway). Put that and the dire linearity together an the speaker just doesn’t sound good lol.
I think for these reasons a JXR6 (anyone want to sell a pair?) would work well as it is very linear and can cross extremely low. SPL might be a problem but I’ll have to compromise between Xover and SPL.
Oh, the amp for the tweeters is a class A Monarchy Audio 70 thingy. Woofers is a level matched Technics. Not great but not bad and its not the cause of the confusion lower down.
I've tried the Neo8 with a woofer and 24db/octave active crossover . It sounded better than my upgraded Mission 701's. Extreme HF was a bit down but I added a Neo3 and it filled it up. I plan to rig it up again with some refinements.
The Neo's were on an open baffle.
I think it sounded very good . I' did not use a notch filter but played around with the passive crossover between the Neo3 and Neo8. They added up very nicely. I looked for the files on my computer but can't find them. Might just have to rig up everything again.
Cheers.
The Neo's were on an open baffle.
I think it sounded very good . I' did not use a notch filter but played around with the passive crossover between the Neo3 and Neo8. They added up very nicely. I looked for the files on my computer but can't find them. Might just have to rig up everything again.
Cheers.
Tenson said:
LOL!
You could try horn loading within a specific passband:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6228&perpage=10&pagenumber=6
I think the real problem is the resonance. It isn't that high in amplitude on any other measurements I've seen from other sources. Bad drivers?
The amp is likely a low output impeadance desing which tends to overdampen drivers in this range - particularly ribbons - but also anything with low mass for a given sd. (like the BG planars AND the Jordan JXR6). An autoformer might work well here for the Monarchy - just don't use it on the bass amp as well.
The "confused" sound could well be the rear phase output bouncing around in your room. However, it could also be a "time" problem - note that the excursion of your midbass is QUITE different than the Neo 8. IF thats the problem the JXR6 should definity be a cure (beyond that of the issue with linearity), because its own excursion should more closely match that of the midbass at moderate spl's. (..and yes, I don't think the Jordan will cut-it for high spl's and a low cut-off freq. - could be wrong though.)
Well, they sound a lot better on an open baffle than in a heavily damped small box.
I tuned the crossover a bit more outside today (fuk its cold!) to get more accurate measurements.
It sounds better again now I have done that. I am now using a 12dB butterworth on the woofer and a 6dB butterworth on the Neo8 but at about 2.4KHz to counteract the peak lower down. I then added a 4.5dB notch filter at 750Hz which fixed the peak pretty well.
Quite a complex crossover that I don't want to do passive But it does sound reasonable.
Anyone got an idea of how high the JXR6 would need to be crossed to get enough SPL for metal and rock stuff in a small room?
I tuned the crossover a bit more outside today (fuk its cold!) to get more accurate measurements.
It sounds better again now I have done that. I am now using a 12dB butterworth on the woofer and a 6dB butterworth on the Neo8 but at about 2.4KHz to counteract the peak lower down. I then added a 4.5dB notch filter at 750Hz which fixed the peak pretty well.
Quite a complex crossover that I don't want to do passive
But it does sound reasonable.Anyone got an idea of how high the JXR6 would need to be crossed to get enough SPL for metal and rock stuff in a small room?
Tenson said:
Yes and no. Yes use a small enclosure to give natural LF roll-off AND use a filter to further limit the signal. The crossover you use depends on if active or passive. IF passive then use a 1st order highpass, if active then use a LR 4th order and if desired use a bit more volume to extend the response a little for an extended bandwidth (..but I'd target something no lower than between 300-400 Hz). BTW, the Bandor 150 (2x 8 ohm drivers per side paralleled) are the natural partners to this driver. (..baffle step "built in" and no high freq. nasty resonances and a low fs.)
I'm using Neo8 PDR's in open baffles (32 X 32 cm). Crossover is active (Thel filter, -24db) at 350hz. I also use the notch at 12khz. For bass I'm using Scanspeak 25W8567-SE woofers in sealed enclosures.
Sounds excellent!! Transparant, open and with great imaging. I'm currently not missing a tweeter (Neo3), because good response at 18khz, but 4db down at 20khz.
Sounds excellent!! Transparant, open and with great imaging. I'm currently not missing a tweeter (Neo3), because good response at 18khz, but 4db down at 20khz.
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