Hello ,
I would like to ask if somebody knows a good diaphragm coating method ?
Graphite coatings are not uniform , fishing line nylon does not adhere well to mylar, liquid soap seems being not reliable...
I Have searched for hours in the internet , without a success.
Thanks in advance ,
Lukas
I would like to ask if somebody knows a good diaphragm coating method ?
Graphite coatings are not uniform , fishing line nylon does not adhere well to mylar, liquid soap seems being not reliable...
I Have searched for hours in the internet , without a success.
Thanks in advance ,
Lukas
I have had some good results with Licron, a spray-on "permanent" antistatic coating made by Tech Spray. I have not had it on my speakers for long, but others have had it on for years and it is still working.
It is very easy to apply. Just tension and mount the diaphragm, mask off areas as required, and spray on the Licron.
A 10 oz can costs about $40 and holds enough of the spray to make a LOT of ESLs.
I_F
It is very easy to apply. Just tension and mount the diaphragm, mask off areas as required, and spray on the Licron.
A 10 oz can costs about $40 and holds enough of the spray to make a LOT of ESLs.
I_F
Licron
Hi,
I tested Licron. It´s easy to apply by spraying action and it gives a good efficiency and quick charge loading. On the other hand, I couldn´t get uniform results, because spraying with such a can, will not give constant results. After drying some segments of my panels looked translucent, while others had the appearance of a salty crust. :-((
jauu
Calvin
Hi,
I tested Licron. It´s easy to apply by spraying action and it gives a good efficiency and quick charge loading. On the other hand, I couldn´t get uniform results, because spraying with such a can, will not give constant results. After drying some segments of my panels looked translucent, while others had the appearance of a salty crust. :-((
jauu
Calvin
Weldbond
Something that I will post to stimulate experimentation. Weldbond white glue which is a modified PVA adhesive is made by Frank T. Ross & Sons Ltd. in Toronto. (www.weldbond.com) when diluted one part glue to five parts water can be sprayed or brushed onto mylar and dries to a fine cloudy thin film. This bonds extreemly well to mylar. You can experiment with quaternium ammonium salts to dope the adhesive to achieve the desired resistivity. The most simple source would be to take a non sented Downy dryer sheet and soak it in some water. Then use the water to dope the adhesive. Many anti static products like hair conditioner or shampoo with added hair conditioner contain such salts and could also be experimented with. Easy to play with and almost free. Weldbond can be found at most any craft store as it is considered a universal adhesive. By the way Weldbond is totally non toxic. Best regards Moray James.
Something that I will post to stimulate experimentation. Weldbond white glue which is a modified PVA adhesive is made by Frank T. Ross & Sons Ltd. in Toronto. (www.weldbond.com) when diluted one part glue to five parts water can be sprayed or brushed onto mylar and dries to a fine cloudy thin film. This bonds extreemly well to mylar. You can experiment with quaternium ammonium salts to dope the adhesive to achieve the desired resistivity. The most simple source would be to take a non sented Downy dryer sheet and soak it in some water. Then use the water to dope the adhesive. Many anti static products like hair conditioner or shampoo with added hair conditioner contain such salts and could also be experimented with. Easy to play with and almost free. Weldbond can be found at most any craft store as it is considered a universal adhesive. By the way Weldbond is totally non toxic. Best regards Moray James.
Finding out
MJ: yes you are completly correct. The best way that I know of to learn what you are doing is to do. With these materials so inexpensive, easy to use and so readily available is to experiment. I would rather spend some of my time playing with mixtures than rubbing graphite which is exactly what the majority of the diy builders use.
Yes there are coatings available (not sure of the cost of the one you use) Licron has now got a good track record but it is expensive. This combination of materials is almost free in comparrison and is totally non toxic. I would be interested in feedback from those who have the interest to experiment with the Weldbond and Quats. I should think that the small amount of mass that the PVA layer will add should also provide some welcome damping to a mylar substrate. I think that it is great to have some diy alternatives to graphite which has for decades been a real bug bear for many (potential) diy builders. I guess time and some trial diaphragms will tell the whole story. Remember that the full cure for Weldbond is about 30 days though in such a fine layer I should think that 20 days (or less) is probably to be expected. If the coating is stable after a month then we can see what kind of long term stability it will offer. Very best regards Moray James.
MJ: yes you are completly correct. The best way that I know of to learn what you are doing is to do. With these materials so inexpensive, easy to use and so readily available is to experiment. I would rather spend some of my time playing with mixtures than rubbing graphite which is exactly what the majority of the diy builders use.
Yes there are coatings available (not sure of the cost of the one you use) Licron has now got a good track record but it is expensive. This combination of materials is almost free in comparrison and is totally non toxic. I would be interested in feedback from those who have the interest to experiment with the Weldbond and Quats. I should think that the small amount of mass that the PVA layer will add should also provide some welcome damping to a mylar substrate. I think that it is great to have some diy alternatives to graphite which has for decades been a real bug bear for many (potential) diy builders. I guess time and some trial diaphragms will tell the whole story. Remember that the full cure for Weldbond is about 30 days though in such a fine layer I should think that 20 days (or less) is probably to be expected. If the coating is stable after a month then we can see what kind of long term stability it will offer. Very best regards Moray James.
The effect of damping is very small unless you cover both sides of the membrane and/or are applying a very very thick layer. Both options being awkward and thick layers will cause some other unexpected problems. Usually a single layer adds little weight. For example, my EC-coating adds around 12 mg/100cm2. It is unlikely that such amounts will alter the properties of the Mylar in a siginificant degree. Damping the membrane with silicone dots or with an air-resistance like speaker grill cloth is far more effective. (I personally favor silicone dots)
If you want an alternative for graphite you may try my EC-coating.
Its mechanism of conduction is similar to graphite (electronic conduction) and it doesn't take a month to cure.
If you want an alternative for graphite you may try my EC-coating.
Its mechanism of conduction is similar to graphite (electronic conduction) and it doesn't take a month to cure.
Hi folks,
i use the EC-coating from Martin Jan and i am wondering why others mass around with graphite or other time consuming methods.
The EC-coating isn't expensive and it works, is very easy to apply and, at least thats what Martin mentions, will have a life cycle of many years.
The only question, which i still asking myself is, why ML or audiostatic quit using EC-coating ??
capaciti
i use the EC-coating from Martin Jan and i am wondering why others mass around with graphite or other time consuming methods.
The EC-coating isn't expensive and it works, is very easy to apply and, at least thats what Martin mentions, will have a life cycle of many years.
The only question, which i still asking myself is, why ML or audiostatic quit using EC-coating ??
capaciti
Hi, on the topic of coatings, I found a company called Shanghai HuZheng Nanotech which had an anti-static coating. The company rep said it was similar to Techspray Licron Crystal. She said when diluted 1:1 with alcohol, it would achieve a resistivity of E7 to E9 and dry to approx 2 microns thick. The rep said it would last for 10 years at least. I bought, but never finally used it.
I swabbed the diaphragm with the coating and it looks as in the picture. About a day later I tried scraping it off, but it stuck steadfast with no markings. If anyone is interested in experimenting, I'll put it in small bottles and send across.
I swabbed the diaphragm with the coating and it looks as in the picture. About a day later I tried scraping it off, but it stuck steadfast with no markings. If anyone is interested in experimenting, I'll put it in small bottles and send across.
Attachments
I have no available data about adhesion on this particular material.
Within ec-coating additives are used to promote adhesion on hydrophobic surfaces. One should try the adhesion and distribution on saran, i dont have that material to experiment with.
The thickness of ec-coating corresponds to 1 micron mylar.
Yes its the RB-048 coating and can only be mixed with alcohol. The 079 coating can be mixed with both water and alcohol. I think the RB048 coating lasts much longer. Both have 10 7-9 resistivity
Sheet attached:
Attachments
hmm that looks nice, gone try to get a sample
if you still have some left i would like some. being able to just dilute it with alcohol is nice and not that messy and might even be possible to print a coating hmm that looks nice, gone try to get a sample
Sure WrineX, just msg me your address and I'll send you a bottle of the liquid. Do let me know your findings!
I appreciate that PVDF is a difficult material to stick anything to, but perhaps our everday idea of sticking is not appropriate? I originally spoke of a coating "adhering" to a surface. Quad used soluble nylon for their ESL 57 where the bass panels were covered with Saran, so it seems to have "stayed on" the surface long enough for the product to become accepted. Obviously one would have to test M-J D's EC-coating.
FWIW I have found (by accident) a really high tech adhesive for PVDF film: linseed oil. This gives fairly good adhesion against peeling and much better in sheer. I used a 3-hour gold size, which might contain other drying oils than linseed, but it was linseed oil which gave me the idea. I applied the gold size and left it for 1 hour before laying on the foil. It was tested after 24 hours.
FWIW I have found (by accident) a really high tech adhesive for PVDF film: linseed oil. This gives fairly good adhesion against peeling and much better in sheer. I used a 3-hour gold size, which might contain other drying oils than linseed, but it was linseed oil which gave me the idea. I applied the gold size and left it for 1 hour before laying on the foil. It was tested after 24 hours.
Just wondering why you would want to use a PVDF film rather than a polyester (Mylar) film. What's the advantage?
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