Hi Mr pin,
a curved ESL is one of the most challenging designs. The two stators need to be bend perfectly and appropriate spacer distances cannot just be defined, but require a lot of testing to find the best matching distances.
people who built curved ones invested a lot of time in developing and manufacturing tools to achieve precise results.
Be aware, if this will be your first ESL project it takes months to get it run and possibly years before it sounds as you expect it to do.
capaciti
a curved ESL is one of the most challenging designs. The two stators need to be bend perfectly and appropriate spacer distances cannot just be defined, but require a lot of testing to find the best matching distances.
people who built curved ones invested a lot of time in developing and manufacturing tools to achieve precise results.
Be aware, if this will be your first ESL project it takes months to get it run and possibly years before it sounds as you expect it to do.
capaciti
I guessed it was something like that.
The only reason why I was concidering doing this was because i wish to build a pair of ESL's that are not so wide as to take up a huge amount of room.
So I pose a new question, what would be the best way to achive good sound dispertion with a panal only about 15-20 inches wide?
The only reason why I was concidering doing this was because i wish to build a pair of ESL's that are not so wide as to take up a huge amount of room.
So I pose a new question, what would be the best way to achive good sound dispertion with a panal only about 15-20 inches wide?
flat screen speakers...
hi ppl....
capaciti may well know about this...or anyone who knows alot about making speakers...(esp alternative types)
i dj in england and used to go to a club which was in an old theatre and the sound system was fantastic,emphasised no doubt by the brilliant acoustics of the room....
well....one night i was in the downstairs back bar area and all of a sudden the whole wall in front of me was suddenly turned on with sound and it literally brought tears to my eyes..(which i have to say made me run around the club frantically searching for someone who could turn it down a bit as it was unthinkably too loud for the size of the club and the amount of people in there at this time).
they had never had this in there before and when i did find someone who worked there to ask about it.....and please could you turn it down a bit its punching a hole in my ears!!!........he said that it was a new thing and they were just trying it out that night....
basically that wall had no obvious speaker there..like all the usual ones....and when we investigated it ...it was literally the size of the wall....and not a small wall may i add...black....so we couldnt see it till we heard it ,,haha,,,,and very flat,,,hmmmmmmmmm..???
well was speaking to someone else and im pretty sure they said there was a new way of making speakers like this,,,and even using things like CLING FILM!!!!!???!!!! inside them as some kind of part to it...WHAT...???did i hear this right....and apparantly pretty cheap to make too...
i know it may sound wierd but its true....so flat speakers...like screen effect ones.....who knows about this....anyone????
i mean its only what you would expect really now i guess....we have flat tv and monitor screens,,,so why not flat speaker screens.....
so how are they made up ...anyone,,,,what different methods can be used etc....and not too much electrical terminology please...where possible,,,,thanks,,,,
easy,
nicole..8)
hi ppl....
capaciti may well know about this...or anyone who knows alot about making speakers...(esp alternative types)
i dj in england and used to go to a club which was in an old theatre and the sound system was fantastic,emphasised no doubt by the brilliant acoustics of the room....
well....one night i was in the downstairs back bar area and all of a sudden the whole wall in front of me was suddenly turned on with sound and it literally brought tears to my eyes..(which i have to say made me run around the club frantically searching for someone who could turn it down a bit as it was unthinkably too loud for the size of the club and the amount of people in there at this time).
they had never had this in there before and when i did find someone who worked there to ask about it.....and please could you turn it down a bit its punching a hole in my ears!!!........he said that it was a new thing and they were just trying it out that night....
basically that wall had no obvious speaker there..like all the usual ones....and when we investigated it ...it was literally the size of the wall....and not a small wall may i add...black....so we couldnt see it till we heard it ,,haha,,,,and very flat,,,hmmmmmmmmm..???
well was speaking to someone else and im pretty sure they said there was a new way of making speakers like this,,,and even using things like CLING FILM!!!!!???!!!! inside them as some kind of part to it...WHAT...???did i hear this right....and apparantly pretty cheap to make too...
i know it may sound wierd but its true....so flat speakers...like screen effect ones.....who knows about this....anyone????
i mean its only what you would expect really now i guess....we have flat tv and monitor screens,,,so why not flat speaker screens.....
so how are they made up ...anyone,,,,what different methods can be used etc....and not too much electrical terminology please...where possible,,,,thanks,,,,
easy,
nicole..8)
)hi Folks,
i guess those speakers are like the "NXT" panels. There is a voice coil mounted to any resonating surface, which "shakes" the surface in a chaotic way.
Depending on the material its possible to achieve a quit flat frequency response. The sound waves on the surface look like rings in the water, when you drop a stone into. As a result there is good dispersion even of higher frequencies. If you mount a lot of those drivers to large surfaces you get a really amazing spatiale sound anywhere in the roomm. But do not expect to hear fine details.
There is german joint venture which offers such systems as a inbuild-system for standard wall structures. The amplifier+digital frequency compensation is integrated into the wall (looks like an inwall fuse housing)
capaciti
i guess those speakers are like the "NXT" panels. There is a voice coil mounted to any resonating surface, which "shakes" the surface in a chaotic way.
Depending on the material its possible to achieve a quit flat frequency response. The sound waves on the surface look like rings in the water, when you drop a stone into. As a result there is good dispersion even of higher frequencies. If you mount a lot of those drivers to large surfaces you get a really amazing spatiale sound anywhere in the roomm. But do not expect to hear fine details.
There is german joint venture which offers such systems as a inbuild-system for standard wall structures. The amplifier+digital frequency compensation is integrated into the wall (looks like an inwall fuse housing)
capaciti
good sound dispersion
If you want good sound dispersion don't build a panel 15 - 20 inches wide. Keep your panel narrow. I agree with Calvin that you don't need very much curve if you want to build such a panel. You can obtain very good results with flat panels from 9 inches down to 4 inches. What panels have you listened to that you like?
Since you are in Calgary why don't you PM me. Regards Moray James.
If you want good sound dispersion don't build a panel 15 - 20 inches wide. Keep your panel narrow. I agree with Calvin that you don't need very much curve if you want to build such a panel. You can obtain very good results with flat panels from 9 inches down to 4 inches. What panels have you listened to that you like?
Since you are in Calgary why don't you PM me. Regards Moray James.
So I guess my Final Question is, If I do go 9-4 inches for the width of the panels, would there be any other consideration I Should be looking at before going and building these?
If they are only 9 inches wide, I would love to go about 52 inches tall, and have the panel’s frequency response from about 20 kHz down to about 250 Hz, and cover the rest with a dynamic driver. I am very new to the ESL Side of things, and they appealed to me because the shape and sound is so dynamic.
I am headed to England in 6 days, and I Would love to see this wall speaker. I have never seen anything like that before in my life.
If they are only 9 inches wide, I would love to go about 52 inches tall, and have the panel’s frequency response from about 20 kHz down to about 250 Hz, and cover the rest with a dynamic driver. I am very new to the ESL Side of things, and they appealed to me because the shape and sound is so dynamic.
I am headed to England in 6 days, and I Would love to see this wall speaker. I have never seen anything like that before in my life.
Hi MrPin,
1. if you want to go to 250 hz make your panel 8-10 inches width.
2. For the height consider that the middle of the panel need to be on your "ear-level" when you sit, which is typically 37". So if its 52" tall your woofer housing can be 11" height only.
3. Use a stator-membran distance of 0,039-0,06"
4. use High voltage supply @ 2000 V
5. use a stepup ratio of 1:70 to 1:80
6. use 1/4 mil mylar and stretch it very strong (dont heatshrink)
7. dont mess around with graphite rubbing. take EC-Coating to make the membran conductive.
8. your woofer will blow the membran to the stators at higher levels. to prevent you should put silicone dots on of the perforated steel before you glue it to the mylar to it. place the dots in the centerline of the stator, with a distance of about 4" from dot to dot. When you put the stator to the mylar the dots are squeezed and adhere to the mylar surface.
Don't try to make a curved one. You have to deal with basics of ESL,which is an exercise at all. If you learned your lesson take the next challenge for a curved one.
have fun and success, capaciti
1. if you want to go to 250 hz make your panel 8-10 inches width.
2. For the height consider that the middle of the panel need to be on your "ear-level" when you sit, which is typically 37". So if its 52" tall your woofer housing can be 11" height only.
3. Use a stator-membran distance of 0,039-0,06"
4. use High voltage supply @ 2000 V
5. use a stepup ratio of 1:70 to 1:80
6. use 1/4 mil mylar and stretch it very strong (dont heatshrink)
7. dont mess around with graphite rubbing. take EC-Coating to make the membran conductive.
8. your woofer will blow the membran to the stators at higher levels. to prevent you should put silicone dots on of the perforated steel before you glue it to the mylar to it. place the dots in the centerline of the stator, with a distance of about 4" from dot to dot. When you put the stator to the mylar the dots are squeezed and adhere to the mylar surface.
Don't try to make a curved one. You have to deal with basics of ESL,which is an exercise at all. If you learned your lesson take the next challenge for a curved one.
have fun and success, capaciti
Hi dstockwell,
ec coating is avaiable from martin Jan dijkstra. Its easy to apply, tansparent and has a conductivity about 1Gohm, which is perfect.
He posted at the thread "distributed resonance". Click on the member and you can send him an email. I will not list his email address in order to save his privacy.
capaciti
ec coating is avaiable from martin Jan dijkstra. Its easy to apply, tansparent and has a conductivity about 1Gohm, which is perfect.
He posted at the thread "distributed resonance". Click on the member and you can send him an email. I will not list his email address in order to save his privacy.
capaciti
hmmmmm...yea so makes sense capaciti...but i personally wouldnt have a clue how to make something like that yet...but i will soon i hope
reading all this tho is teaching me something...then i can always read up more on it...which would be necessary if i wanted to make any kind of speaker myself....
so Capaciti....how about if i wanted to make a really small version of that flat wall speaker i told u about...as a little experiment.....and i mean reeeeeally small...miniture infact...say about 2.5 sq inches..
would you be able to tell me what materials i would need just to do a small model of this type of flat speaker...and would it be possible to just use easily accessible cheap materials for this experiment...then i could do a better one with the right materials...????
also.....how would i make it...??i know iv never made anything like this before...but im good with my hands so im sure i can do it with the right instructions!
if you can tell me that would be great...i would appreciate it alot....
and yea
MR PIN....it was the most crazy speaker iv ever heard in my life...it nearly took my head off....and Capaciti...i can see what u mean about it being chaotic,,,and not picking up on the finer details of audio frequencies....but with this model i want to make...it would be required for it to pick up most frequencies put out by all kinds of music if thats possible with this type.....cant wait to hear what you say..
easy,
nicole..8)
reading all this tho is teaching me something...then i can always read up more on it...which would be necessary if i wanted to make any kind of speaker myself....
so Capaciti....how about if i wanted to make a really small version of that flat wall speaker i told u about...as a little experiment.....and i mean reeeeeally small...miniture infact...say about 2.5 sq inches..
would you be able to tell me what materials i would need just to do a small model of this type of flat speaker...and would it be possible to just use easily accessible cheap materials for this experiment...then i could do a better one with the right materials...????
also.....how would i make it...??i know iv never made anything like this before...but im good with my hands so im sure i can do it with the right instructions!
if you can tell me that would be great...i would appreciate it alot....
and yea
MR PIN....it was the most crazy speaker iv ever heard in my life...it nearly took my head off....and Capaciti...i can see what u mean about it being chaotic,,,and not picking up on the finer details of audio frequencies....but with this model i want to make...it would be required for it to pick up most frequencies put out by all kinds of music if thats possible with this type.....cant wait to hear what you say..
easy,
nicole..8)
Hi dj,
There is a company called "Elac" , a loudspeaker manufacturer. For my knowledge they sell the transducer which can be mounted to plane surfaces. Search the web, you should find it.
The smaller the size the higher the deepest frequency you can reproduce. In addition the frequency response is depending on the material (wood, metal, acrylic, glass...) and the position you mount the driver.
I would propose to take a 12x20" acrylic sheet of about 0,12" thick and mount (glue) the driver nonsymmetrical to the geometrie. if ELac still sell the driver they might have instructions for use as well.
BTW: I am experienced in ESL but not in this technique. What i mention is just my thought about it. In addition its not guaranted that the speakers you listended to are of the kind i described.
capaciti
There is a company called "Elac" , a loudspeaker manufacturer. For my knowledge they sell the transducer which can be mounted to plane surfaces. Search the web, you should find it.
The smaller the size the higher the deepest frequency you can reproduce. In addition the frequency response is depending on the material (wood, metal, acrylic, glass...) and the position you mount the driver.
I would propose to take a 12x20" acrylic sheet of about 0,12" thick and mount (glue) the driver nonsymmetrical to the geometrie. if ELac still sell the driver they might have instructions for use as well.
BTW: I am experienced in ESL but not in this technique. What i mention is just my thought about it. In addition its not guaranted that the speakers you listended to are of the kind i described.
capaciti
Why not make a mid and a tweeter ESL?
Quad did this and their speakers are among the best ever...
I would NOT make a speaker that is only 37" high. If you stand up you'll be sooooo off axis it will sound awful... 52" is fine. Don't break it up in the middle with a single break. that makes for two 26" cells.
The acoustat cells, fyi, are 48", and that's a problem, so they made them tilt back (optionally) with the stand...
The other thing that helps is a really solid, solid mounting...
Quad did this and their speakers are among the best ever...
I would NOT make a speaker that is only 37" high. If you stand up you'll be sooooo off axis it will sound awful... 52" is fine. Don't break it up in the middle with a single break. that makes for two 26" cells.
The acoustat cells, fyi, are 48", and that's a problem, so they made them tilt back (optionally) with the stand...
The other thing that helps is a really solid, solid mounting...
It depends on the what the foam is made of, and how long you want your speakers to last. If you're just demoing the principle to some school kids, it will be fine. If you want it for your home stereo system, or to sell to others, it may not be so good.
The horrible white stuff used to stick pictures to walls generally dries up and crumbles within a year of exposure to air. I have heard that there are other types of foam that are formulated for long life. I think if you do a search you may find one of the threads in which this was discussed.
The foam is one issue, and the adhesive is another. In general, self adhesive goo doesn't work well for maintaining tension on the diaphragm which must be very tight for proper operation of the speaker. The continuous pull on the adhesive causes it to flow and release the tension over time. You need an adhesive that dries to a solid and bonds with the low surface energy diaphragm. Some people use superglue which sort of works, but is best for smaller drivers that are not so likely to flex under their own weight. Superglue doesn't bond with the diaphragm very well and the connection can easily be broken. Scotchgrip 4693 contact cement is formulated for low surface energy plastics like polyester and forms a strong bond to the film.
I_F
The horrible white stuff used to stick pictures to walls generally dries up and crumbles within a year of exposure to air. I have heard that there are other types of foam that are formulated for long life. I think if you do a search you may find one of the threads in which this was discussed.
The foam is one issue, and the adhesive is another. In general, self adhesive goo doesn't work well for maintaining tension on the diaphragm which must be very tight for proper operation of the speaker. The continuous pull on the adhesive causes it to flow and release the tension over time. You need an adhesive that dries to a solid and bonds with the low surface energy diaphragm. Some people use superglue which sort of works, but is best for smaller drivers that are not so likely to flex under their own weight. Superglue doesn't bond with the diaphragm very well and the connection can easily be broken. Scotchgrip 4693 contact cement is formulated for low surface energy plastics like polyester and forms a strong bond to the film.
I_F
Acoustat panels
The standard Acoustat panel is 9 inches wide by about 47 inches long. These can perform extreemly well with good equipment and some mods. You can fashion your own panels after the style of the Acoustat panel which is to my knowledge one of the most robust in the industry. If you would like to hear a set of Acoustat 0ne plus 0nes I can arrange for you to have an audition. I think that you will be impressed. You can PM me to make arrangements. Best regards Moray James.
The standard Acoustat panel is 9 inches wide by about 47 inches long. These can perform extreemly well with good equipment and some mods. You can fashion your own panels after the style of the Acoustat panel which is to my knowledge one of the most robust in the industry. If you would like to hear a set of Acoustat 0ne plus 0nes I can arrange for you to have an audition. I think that you will be impressed. You can PM me to make arrangements. Best regards Moray James.
I haven’t been around for a while, but I have a really quick question (I hope someone who can answer is still watching this thread)
I was thinking of a rather large design. 74 inches in height, and 10 inches wide... Something that will hide in my living room nicely... Now When I build the stator, should I have horizontal support on it, or do I need to bother at this width?
I was thinking of a rather large design. 74 inches in height, and 10 inches wide... Something that will hide in my living room nicely... Now When I build the stator, should I have horizontal support on it, or do I need to bother at this width?
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