To anyone who has listened to this loudspeaker....
I am perplexed by a pair of Final 0.3 hybrid ESLs. The reviews seem generally complementary, however my own experience or these ESLs is of a thin and bright sound which is not at all pleasurable during longer-term listening. The brightness could be due to ‘beaming’ but the thinness seems to be due to an imbalance between the panel and the bass unit, causing a substantial and broad dip in the response in the crossover region between 200-600Hz.
I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has formed a similar impression of this ESL.
Tim.
I am perplexed by a pair of Final 0.3 hybrid ESLs. The reviews seem generally complementary, however my own experience or these ESLs is of a thin and bright sound which is not at all pleasurable during longer-term listening. The brightness could be due to ‘beaming’ but the thinness seems to be due to an imbalance between the panel and the bass unit, causing a substantial and broad dip in the response in the crossover region between 200-600Hz.
I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has formed a similar impression of this ESL.
Tim.
TimA said:
Hi TimA,
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one that doesn't like the sound of the Final's not even one of them sounds like it has to!
The only ESL that really sound wonderfull is the Martin Logan CLS and other Hybride models from the same manufacture.
Not even Quad! With all due respect!
Final knows how to make nice looking ESL's but not nice sounding ones. Just my 2 cents.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
Re: Re: Final 0.3 Hybrid ESL
Not even Quad ! Not even Quad !
Quad ESl's sound quite lovely actually, especially with their sub stands, though hard to place correctly.
Martin logan's CLS is better, i agree, but was way more expensive and needed a powerplant.
After the neverending Sequel i became thoroughly DISSAPOINTED in the brand.
Still, if i had my birthday wish, i'd love a set of Martin Logan Statement. First edition, not SE please.
That i was honoured to attend its performance in Paris, on the Isle de Paris, at its world tour, and it was utter utter
amazement.
Audiofanatic said:
Not even Quad ! Not even Quad !
Quad ESl's sound quite lovely actually, especially with their sub stands, though hard to place correctly.
Martin logan's CLS is better, i agree, but was way more expensive and needed a powerplant.
After the neverending Sequel i became thoroughly DISSAPOINTED in the brand.
Still, if i had my birthday wish, i'd love a set of Martin Logan Statement. First edition, not SE please.
That i was honoured to attend its performance in Paris, on the Isle de Paris, at its world tour, and it was utter utter
amazement.
A solution to the Final 0.3’s thin sound.
The following applies to what I believe is an updated (by Final) version of the 0.3ESL which apparently boasts a modified panel design. I notice also that the bass unit is cosmetically different from that shown in one or two reviews, so the following comments may not necessarily apply across the board to all 0.3ESLs.
As previously mentioned in this thread both my friend (its owner) and I found this speaker lacking fullness, sounding thin and bright on most material. Though there seemed to be enough low bass, below 80Hz or so, we thought there was a broad dip above this frequency, all the way up to around 400-600Hz where the bass unit is crossed over to the panel. Some crude measurements were enough to confirm this by indicating this dip to be in the region of 6dB, however as ESL panels seem to sound louder than figures suggest the subjective imbalance could have been even worse. Eventually we arrived at a simple and inexpensive solution which seems to have addressed the problem head on and which has since stood the test of time during much listening by at least two listeners with good ears, a musician and a piano tuner, using a wide variety of material.
1. The signal to the treble panel passes through a 35uF capacitor followed by the step-up transformer. The 35uF N.P. electrolytic was changed to a Solen polypropylene 40uF (this was the closest value available). This proved very worthwhile indeed, increasing clarity and leading to a substantially improved sense of focus in the treble.
2. The bass circuit consists of an air-cored inductor connected in series, followed by and a 270uF electrolytic capacitor in series with a small resistor connected to ground. The 270uF capacitor was removed and replaced with the 35uF capacitor which had previously been removed from the treble section (above), the small resistor (IIRC 1.25ohms) was replaced by a piece of wire. This change was to be preliminary with subsequent fine-tuning expected to be necessary, however after subsequent listening no further changes to the value of the capacitor are planned.
3. The final change was to replace the 12Vac power supplies (which measured almost 14Vac) with 7.5Vac (these measure just over 8Vac). In fact, an inexpensive unit was found which offers AC voltages that are switchable in roughly 1.5V steps, thus providing useful adjustment of tonal balance between bass unit and panel via contol of the diaphragms polarising voltage.
Tim.
The following applies to what I believe is an updated (by Final) version of the 0.3ESL which apparently boasts a modified panel design. I notice also that the bass unit is cosmetically different from that shown in one or two reviews, so the following comments may not necessarily apply across the board to all 0.3ESLs.
As previously mentioned in this thread both my friend (its owner) and I found this speaker lacking fullness, sounding thin and bright on most material. Though there seemed to be enough low bass, below 80Hz or so, we thought there was a broad dip above this frequency, all the way up to around 400-600Hz where the bass unit is crossed over to the panel. Some crude measurements were enough to confirm this by indicating this dip to be in the region of 6dB, however as ESL panels seem to sound louder than figures suggest the subjective imbalance could have been even worse. Eventually we arrived at a simple and inexpensive solution which seems to have addressed the problem head on and which has since stood the test of time during much listening by at least two listeners with good ears, a musician and a piano tuner, using a wide variety of material.
1. The signal to the treble panel passes through a 35uF capacitor followed by the step-up transformer. The 35uF N.P. electrolytic was changed to a Solen polypropylene 40uF (this was the closest value available). This proved very worthwhile indeed, increasing clarity and leading to a substantially improved sense of focus in the treble.
2. The bass circuit consists of an air-cored inductor connected in series, followed by and a 270uF electrolytic capacitor in series with a small resistor connected to ground. The 270uF capacitor was removed and replaced with the 35uF capacitor which had previously been removed from the treble section (above), the small resistor (IIRC 1.25ohms) was replaced by a piece of wire. This change was to be preliminary with subsequent fine-tuning expected to be necessary, however after subsequent listening no further changes to the value of the capacitor are planned.
3. The final change was to replace the 12Vac power supplies (which measured almost 14Vac) with 7.5Vac (these measure just over 8Vac). In fact, an inexpensive unit was found which offers AC voltages that are switchable in roughly 1.5V steps, thus providing useful adjustment of tonal balance between bass unit and panel via contol of the diaphragms polarising voltage.
Tim.
I have also Finals 0.3, which are given to me satisfaction and disatisfaction.
From the begining they seams to me they have a cruel midrange sound. I changed the bass taiwanese drivers with Seas L17 REP aluminium 6.5" driver, and the sound becomes more precise in the upper low spectrum, and with some good deep frequency. Satisfaction in the field.
But the midrange remains unpleasant ( female vocals, violin, trumpet).
Now i will try to reduce bach pannel radiation with 1/2" dense felt mounted behind the diafragm.
Is anyone who reach results in leaning crispy midrange?
Must I modify some caps and resistors in the crossover?
Waiting advice.
Petre
From the begining they seams to me they have a cruel midrange sound. I changed the bass taiwanese drivers with Seas L17 REP aluminium 6.5" driver, and the sound becomes more precise in the upper low spectrum, and with some good deep frequency. Satisfaction in the field.
But the midrange remains unpleasant ( female vocals, violin, trumpet).
Now i will try to reduce bach pannel radiation with 1/2" dense felt mounted behind the diafragm.
Is anyone who reach results in leaning crispy midrange?
Must I modify some caps and resistors in the crossover?
Waiting advice.
Petre
Petre,
If you are saying that there is too much upper midrange/treble and not enough upper bass, but good low bass - in other words...'thin' - I suggest you carry out the modifications that I outlined earlier in this thread.
Incidentally, we also tried a 'better' bass drive unit but we eventually switched back to the original Taiwanese unit, finding it actually very good when the other problems had been fixed.
Tim.
If you are saying that there is too much upper midrange/treble and not enough upper bass, but good low bass - in other words...'thin' - I suggest you carry out the modifications that I outlined earlier in this thread.
Incidentally, we also tried a 'better' bass drive unit but we eventually switched back to the original Taiwanese unit, finding it actually very good when the other problems had been fixed.
Tim.
Final 0.3
Hi Petre,
If you want good midrange, cristal claen and smooth highs and better bass, than sell the final's and buy yourself a pair of good old Martin Logans and you'll be singing an twinkeling your eye's
The name says everything, it's final, you'll never gona get good sound out of it. Sorry if I step on a few toes.
Just my two cents.
Audiofanatic
Hi Petre,
If you want good midrange, cristal claen and smooth highs and better bass, than sell the final's and buy yourself a pair of good old Martin Logans and you'll be singing an twinkeling your eye's
The name says everything, it's final, you'll never gona get good sound out of it. Sorry if I step on a few toes.
Just my two cents.
Audiofanatic
My friend (whose set we modified) was about to sell his too, he even placed an advertisement for them. However since the modifications (which transform them) he can't imagine life without them! His friends are envious and, without exception, others who have heard them recently have had nothing but high praise for them.
Tim.
Hi i own a pair of final 0.3s, and i think they sound awesome!!!!!
and i am not the only one to think other than that, just read the reviews don't they count for anything any more, when i got mine from a high end uk dealer i listened to various high end mega buck amps and cd players, and they did sound different depending on what front end was being used but nothing like you have said in the forum, none of you have said what amps or cd players you use with them, you can have the best and most expensive speakers in the world!!! but if you feed then with the wrong kit the will sound ****, as for martin logans just look at how much more they cost!! with the finals you get good looks and awesome sound per pound, i would like to know what amp and cd player you are using with them my cd player is a wadia 860x and my power amp is a chord 1200e i did listen to martin logans with the wadia and the chord, but for me it had to be the finals between the two there was just not much difference in sound but more money in your pocket.
TIM i am glad you are now happy with your finals, There is no way i'm going to sell mine.
Trev
and i am not the only one to think other than that, just read the reviews don't they count for anything any more, when i got mine from a high end uk dealer i listened to various high end mega buck amps and cd players, and they did sound different depending on what front end was being used but nothing like you have said in the forum, none of you have said what amps or cd players you use with them, you can have the best and most expensive speakers in the world!!! but if you feed then with the wrong kit the will sound ****, as for martin logans just look at how much more they cost!! with the finals you get good looks and awesome sound per pound, i would like to know what amp and cd player you are using with them my cd player is a wadia 860x and my power amp is a chord 1200e i did listen to martin logans with the wadia and the chord, but for me it had to be the finals between the two there was just not much difference in sound but more money in your pocket.
TIM i am glad you are now happy with your finals, There is no way i'm going to sell mine.
Trev
Trev,
Thankyou for your contribution, which seems to add weight to the favourable reviews and therefore adds to my confusion with regard to these reviews and my own impressions of this ESL. You wrote “none of you have said what amps or cd players you use with them”. At this moment my friend’s final 0.3s (those that we modified) are being used with an “improved” NAD CD player, a musical fidelity preamp (A3cr) and a Quad 606. The latter was chosen as it is supposed to be stable into any load, thereby removing (hopefully) amplifier instability from the equation. However, regardless of how well the ancillary equipment sounds I don’t see it compensating for the severe - both subjective and measured - drop in output through the two-octave range below the cross-over frequency that was readily apparent on this particular pair. This mismatch needed to be corrected but now they sound terrific.
Tim.
Thankyou for your contribution, which seems to add weight to the favourable reviews and therefore adds to my confusion with regard to these reviews and my own impressions of this ESL. You wrote “none of you have said what amps or cd players you use with them”. At this moment my friend’s final 0.3s (those that we modified) are being used with an “improved” NAD CD player, a musical fidelity preamp (A3cr) and a Quad 606. The latter was chosen as it is supposed to be stable into any load, thereby removing (hopefully) amplifier instability from the equation. However, regardless of how well the ancillary equipment sounds I don’t see it compensating for the severe - both subjective and measured - drop in output through the two-octave range below the cross-over frequency that was readily apparent on this particular pair. This mismatch needed to be corrected but now they sound terrific.
Tim.
Front end!
Hi guy's
Nice to read that you don't agree with me
May I ask which Martin-Logan you where listening to?
I don't like all ML's the old one's are better than the new ones.
Let me tell you this, it don't metter what speakers or front end or cables you use, as long as you are happy with the sound!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thant's what matters, isn't it??????
I'm glad to hear that you guys are happy with the Final's, and i hope they will keep playing a long time. I really do.
All the best to you all and keep listening to your favourite music and enjoy every seccond of it.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
EDIT: I have PLINIUS
Hi guy's
Nice to read that you don't agree with me
May I ask which Martin-Logan you where listening to?
I don't like all ML's the old one's are better than the new ones.
Let me tell you this, it don't metter what speakers or front end or cables you use, as long as you are happy with the sound!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thant's what matters, isn't it??????
I'm glad to hear that you guys are happy with the Final's, and i hope they will keep playing a long time. I really do.
All the best to you all and keep listening to your favourite music and enjoy every seccond of it.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic
EDIT: I have PLINIUS
Hi all,
I have a pair of the first series of the Final 0.3, so that includes the fixed powercord.
While I was happy with their sound at first, I decided to do some modding on them since I unfortunately don't have that much money to buy MLs.
What I have done is I replaced the crappy powercord with thick, shielded powercords from Belden and terminated them with Balts/Schuro biggest power plugs.
Then I replaced the 33mF with Mundorf 33mF MCaps and replaced the the 1MF bypass capacitor with Mundorf 1mF supreme silver/oil.
I can tel you that the difference is tremendous! I first did the right speaker to be able to compare before and after modification. But you actually couldn't compare them anymore. the modification brings much more detail, depth and a bigger soundstage
I now ordered mundorf copperfoil coils to replace the standard coils, I wonder what this will bring me...
@TimAoesn't replacing the 220mF with the old 33mF completely change the characteristics? It sounds very interesting to change that cheap cap, but I'm a bit afraid of what it might do.
I have a pair of the first series of the Final 0.3, so that includes the fixed powercord.
While I was happy with their sound at first, I decided to do some modding on them since I unfortunately don't have that much money to buy MLs.
What I have done is I replaced the crappy powercord with thick, shielded powercords from Belden and terminated them with Balts/Schuro biggest power plugs.
Then I replaced the 33mF with Mundorf 33mF MCaps and replaced the the 1MF bypass capacitor with Mundorf 1mF supreme silver/oil.
I can tel you that the difference is tremendous! I first did the right speaker to be able to compare before and after modification. But you actually couldn't compare them anymore. the modification brings much more detail, depth and a bigger soundstage
I now ordered mundorf copperfoil coils to replace the standard coils, I wonder what this will bring me...
@TimA
oesn't replacing the 220mF with the old 33mF completely change the characteristics? It sounds very interesting to change that cheap cap, but I'm a bit afraid of what it might do.azagtoth,
It increases the amount of upper bass very significantly, I our case it removed much of the lean and thin balance of the speaker, though we needed to reduce the panel sensitivity via new power supplies in order to bring the 'whole' speaker into balance.
Incidentally, there are a couple of 'unknown' variables here.
1. The bass unit seems to have been changed at some point, ours uses a Taiwanese model whose dust-cap is the same colour as the cone (I notice that some have a black dust cap - this may be just cosmetic, I don't know).
2. The panel was updated - my experiences are with the later version. I don't know if either of these differences actually account for the discrepancy between my impressions of this particular pair and comments found elsewhere, but as cross-over components often need to be altered when the drive unit is changed it would not suprise me much.
I hope you will let us know.
Tim.
Not quite Final...
I had a pair of the Final 0.3's on loan from the US distributor Bob Rappaport for about 4 months. Unfortunately his personal pair that he loaned me had one ESL panel which had a much lower output than the other, making for a poor evaluation. (It is another story altogether how much of an incompetent and smarmy impression he left me with. The distribution rights have since moved on.) But I padded -- literally -- the corresponding woofer with a stack of towels, turned the balance control way over, and pushed them as hard as the Forte Model 4A could manage (50W Class A).
I really like the design, but I thought it was executed on the cheapest, flimsiest side possible (believe me, I dissected them). There is a lot of potential for these speakers, but I think they deserve some half decent upgrades wherever possible. I still want these speakers (and now the 0.3's are gone), but just can't be sure about the reliability of the panels themselves. (An example of how ratty these are manufactured: the perforated holes in the front and rear stators on one side don't quite align, making one more opaque than the other -- surprisingly distracting while positioning them.) Everything else about them is upgradable, and I'm glad you guys have found out exactly how.
Photos of Bob, me, club listening room, and 0.3's:
http://tampabaylisteningsociety.com/Meeting_Photos/May_2001/Photos/photos.html
I had a pair of the Final 0.3's on loan from the US distributor Bob Rappaport for about 4 months. Unfortunately his personal pair that he loaned me had one ESL panel which had a much lower output than the other, making for a poor evaluation. (It is another story altogether how much of an incompetent and smarmy impression he left me with. The distribution rights have since moved on.) But I padded -- literally -- the corresponding woofer with a stack of towels, turned the balance control way over, and pushed them as hard as the Forte Model 4A could manage (50W Class A).
I really like the design, but I thought it was executed on the cheapest, flimsiest side possible (believe me, I dissected them). There is a lot of potential for these speakers, but I think they deserve some half decent upgrades wherever possible. I still want these speakers (and now the 0.3's are gone), but just can't be sure about the reliability of the panels themselves. (An example of how ratty these are manufactured: the perforated holes in the front and rear stators on one side don't quite align, making one more opaque than the other -- surprisingly distracting while positioning them.) Everything else about them is upgradable, and I'm glad you guys have found out exactly how.
Photos of Bob, me, club listening room, and 0.3's:
http://tampabaylisteningsociety.com/Meeting_Photos/May_2001/Photos/photos.html
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