Pros and cons of small ESL tweeters?

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Thanks for the reply. Is there any advantage to using a ribbon tweeter?
I have a pair of Maggie 1.6's. They roll off at around 20K and run the full length of the panel---I think.

I wonder it such a short ribbon will keep up with the rest of the speaker in a HT setting.
 
The AC ribbons sound amazing. The small ones will reach 111dB at 30W/1m, no problems keeping up with HT dynamics. But you have to like the kind of forward, sizzly sound that a ribbon produces.

Ribbons are usually touted for their extremely fast decay times, low moving mass, and resolving power. They have wide horizontal dispersion and very tight vertical dispersion, which can be assets or liabilities depending on the requirements.
 
Coupla things...

- you can't probably hear anything near 20kHz. (I could as a teenager, but not no more, and most people never can)
- you probably don't have any source material with anything useful at that frequency, and not above.
- the maggie's tweeter "sound" depends more on the amp driving it, the source and the cables than anything else - they're actually pretty good.
- ribbon tweeters should *never* sound "sizzly"! If they do there's something wrong with either the tweeter or the source that is driving it - and that flaw is being revealed accurately.

_-_-bear :Pawprint:
 
I want to upgrade the speakers in my HT. I have a set of Krix HT speakers. I was never happy with them. Then I got a set of Maggie 1.6's. I like them but everything that I have read about HT setup leans toward an over dampened room and direct radiating speakers. Now I am in the process of building a house with a dedicated HT (600sq ft) and am going to change out the speakers so that they are all the same.

I have heard Wilson Watt pups and like them. They use a Scan-Speak 18w/8545 and D2905/9300. This setup would be more expensive to build than the Salk HT setup. I don't know at what point I'm just wasting money on more expensive drivers. However, I don't want to go to the expense of building new speakers and not be thrilled with the results. I am a carpenter by trade so the cabinets are not a problem to build.

The Salk already has the xo designed but I bet I could find someone to do that for me. Someone with a bearish attude perhaps.

Any suggestions?
 
You can describe it however you like, but ribbons definitely have "something" (air, sizzle, call it what you will) that typical dynamic tweeters usually lack. Some people consider this harsh, others revealing, everyone will make their mind up for themselves.

It's like the characteristic "raspy" sound that the Proac 2.5s have...some people hate it and spend countless hours "fixing" it. Personally, I think it is part of the charm of this loudspeaker. (Note: I agree that the bump in FR needs to be eliminated, that is a separate issue)
 
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My experience with the AC 2si is that they don't have the typical treble "shimmer" sound that I associate with planars. Instead they are very smooth and natural sounding , but with detail.
It might depend on the crossover. They are wonderful tweeters- I think we can all agree on that? Highly recommended
 
tiroth said:
You can describe it however you like, but ribbons definitely have "something" (air, sizzle, call it what you will) that typical dynamic tweeters usually lack. Some people consider this harsh, others revealing, everyone will make their mind up for themselves.

It's like the characteristic "raspy" sound that the Proac 2.5s have...some people hate it and spend countless hours "fixing" it. Personally, I think it is part of the charm of this loudspeaker. (Note: I agree that the bump in FR needs to be eliminated, that is a separate issue)


Well, we now have to inquire as to your personal listening experiences, since your description of the characteristic of *ribbons* does not correlate to mine.

Having said that, ribbons such as the Apogee line imho did have a specific characteristic to their sound, but this has little to do with being a characteristic of *all* ribbons. It is/was due to some very specific design "issues."

If anything the sound from high quality ribbons is not raspy, it's incredibly sweet and "light." Perhaps too polite.

So, it is my thought that what you've heard is the ribbon accurately reproducing various sorts of "hash" and distortions present in the gear that is feeding the ribbon.

As far as the Proac line, the last time I heard them they did not have ribbon tweeters in their boxes, so I can't hazard a guess as to what the issue may be with that particular manufacturers speakers...

Lets please discriminate between "pure ribbons" and "planar" or "leaf ribbons". While they can share the best qualities of a "ribbon" they each have some unique design tradeoffs and resulting issues depending upon the specifics of the implementation.

Let me add that the absolutely cleanest ribbon I have ever heard, and for that matter the cleanest tweeter I have ever heard - bar none - was a particular high output "leaf ribbon." This particular unit, modified slightly from stock had vanishingly low levels of distortion when played at normal listening levels, on par with some power amplifiers! What this meant is that almost a full order of magnitude *less* distortion than usual was not part of the reproduction. Which made it amazingly easy to discern facets of the signal that were formerly less than clear, without that effect being due to a frequency response variation or peak (as is frequently the case when you suddenly "hear things that were never there before."

This ribbon added nothing, and made practically no sound of its own - certainly compared to *any* dome tweeter, and probably any other tweeter regardless of price or type.

So, I'd suggest that you re-investigate the *causal* factors that brought you to your conclusions about ribbon tweeters in general. Specific ribbon designs can be flawed for certain. But not all, and it's not inherent to the technology itself.

BTW, there are issues relating to the application and effectiveness of a ribbon when *integrated* into a system, but that's another topic - I point it out only to indicate that ribbons are not perfect and are not a panacea, and will not even be a good match in some situations...

:sing: _-_-bear
 
Bear,

I think you are reading far too much into my choice of words, but you've enunciated quite clearly what I was trying to express, so I thank you. We indeed all agree that ribbons in general and the AC ones in particular are quite lovely. I just wanted to make James aware that this is not a universal view amongst audiophiles, so personal experience is valuable.
 
Let me add that the absolutely cleanest ribbon I have ever heard, and for that matter the cleanest tweeter I have ever heard - bar none - was a particular high output "leaf ribbon." This particular unit, modified slightly from stock had vanishingly low levels of distortion when played at normal listening levels, on par with some power amplifiers!

Panasonic?
 
Bear,

Don't hold us all hanging at the end of our linear travel. What WAS that particular high output leaf ribbon that impressed you so?

BTW, what is the consensus here about the PE PT-2 planar tweeter? I have used a pair and I'm gonna keep my comments to myself until I hear from others.
 
rcavictim,

I'll be interested to hear. I've been searching for a sub $50 "ribbon sounding" driver and have yet to find it.

I tried the Monsoon planar tweeter elements on Planet10's suggestion. They do sound surprisingly good (good enough for the surround sound dipoles I'm building) but not good enough for hifi mains IMHO. In the plus column was that lively "planar/tweeter" sound, in the minus column was an uneven FR response and a real tendency to SHOUT. Probably due to the bump in the response around 10-15k.

Bang for the buck though? Hard to beat. I got 4 elements, plus the little powered amp/sub/extra drivers for $50 on eBay.
 

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Yes.

A few reasons.

First, I don't make a habit of recommending specific products in this context in a forum like this.

Second, I am not particularly happy with this particular manufacturer, for assorted reasons. I was technically a distributor for them, but that's another story...

Third, the last thing I want to do is to increase sales for some other company, especially given the above.

And fourth, sometimes it's better for people to do their own poking about and make up their own minds, rather than perpetuate what I call (loosely speaking) "the product of the month club"...

Hope this makes sense...

_-_-bear :Pawprint:
 
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