Electrostatics that rock?
The past few years I have been on the electrostatics trail. I have built a pair myself and I have been involved in the Dutch ESL-builders club.
But.
Recently we have put in a new (solid oak) floor in our living room, and because of that I had to remove all the audio stuff. One evening during this time I wanted a little music so I quickly set up a cd player, amp and speakers. Because it had to be removed again next day I didn’t bother with the ESL’s but instead took my 22-year-old Infinity Qb’s.
I was absolutely shocked to hear how good they sounded. There was soooo much more life and energy in the music. They may not have perfect ESL imaging but everything else is much more fun.
The experience has left me wondering about the future of my speakers.
Other occasions I have listened to electrostatics have always been in unfamiliar and often difficult environments (like a demo in a school canteen for instance), never in my own home. So I find it very difficult to judge their performance.
I am curious if you have similar findings or do electrostatics that rock actually exist?
The past few years I have been on the electrostatics trail. I have built a pair myself and I have been involved in the Dutch ESL-builders club.
But.
Recently we have put in a new (solid oak) floor in our living room, and because of that I had to remove all the audio stuff. One evening during this time I wanted a little music so I quickly set up a cd player, amp and speakers. Because it had to be removed again next day I didn’t bother with the ESL’s but instead took my 22-year-old Infinity Qb’s.
I was absolutely shocked to hear how good they sounded. There was soooo much more life and energy in the music. They may not have perfect ESL imaging but everything else is much more fun.
The experience has left me wondering about the future of my speakers.
Other occasions I have listened to electrostatics have always been in unfamiliar and often difficult environments (like a demo in a school canteen for instance), never in my own home. So I find it very difficult to judge their performance.
I am curious if you have similar findings or do electrostatics that rock actually exist?
I tried to make some home built ESL speakers, in general I think that my construction ability may have been the biggest problem. But I liked the soundstage and the bidirectional sound emission. So I went the open baffle route, I'm not looking to go back.
Guess that doesn't get you any closer to esl's that rock, sorry.
Guess that doesn't get you any closer to esl's that rock, sorry.
Your question raises the broader question of what it is that makes one speaker rock and another not. Is it just SPL? Is it perhaps SPL ability within some limited range of frequencies (maybe the midbass)? Some of the speakers I've heard others praise for rocking ability seemed to me to have a peak in the midbass, or at least an underdamped resonance in that part of the spectrum. I won't claim to have a ready answer to your question, but here's what I've found with my own ESL-based system, in case it's at all useful:
I built some large ESL panels (20" wide x 6.5' tall) that I use from about 250 Hz and above. In the midrange and treble I find they have great snap and clarity---as is generally expected of ESL's. I find that they rock just fine over that range. The bass is handled by a pair of 12" woofers in sealed boxes. I haven't made measurements in awhile but my sense is that I may have a hole in the frequency response where the dynamic woofers and ESL panels overlap. Whatever the cause, I'm less impressed with the reproduction in that frequency region. Just for the fun of it, I'm considering building narrower ESL's to handle the from 500 or maybe 700 Hz and above, and a line array of midbasses to handle from that point downward (until the 12" drivers take over).
So, getting back to the braoder question, unless there's an SPL limit in an important part of the spectrum, or something about the dipole radiation pattern that causes trouble, I'd have a hard time arguing from first principles that ESL's are inherently not rock-able. Perhaps I'm just missing something.
I built some large ESL panels (20" wide x 6.5' tall) that I use from about 250 Hz and above. In the midrange and treble I find they have great snap and clarity---as is generally expected of ESL's. I find that they rock just fine over that range. The bass is handled by a pair of 12" woofers in sealed boxes. I haven't made measurements in awhile but my sense is that I may have a hole in the frequency response where the dynamic woofers and ESL panels overlap. Whatever the cause, I'm less impressed with the reproduction in that frequency region. Just for the fun of it, I'm considering building narrower ESL's to handle the from 500 or maybe 700 Hz and above, and a line array of midbasses to handle from that point downward (until the 12" drivers take over).
So, getting back to the braoder question, unless there's an SPL limit in an important part of the spectrum, or something about the dipole radiation pattern that causes trouble, I'd have a hard time arguing from first principles that ESL's are inherently not rock-able. Perhaps I'm just missing something.
Peter,
I've heard the big Finals (700 and 1.4) driven by a good amp and believe me it can rock.
I for myself use smaller panels with a good sub for the rock experience.
As I'm also a member of the mentioned Dutch ESL-builders club I know the demos. It's very hard to give a good demo in large rooms with many people present.
Really Peter pay a visit at twinstatic and ask for a demo.
Dick
thank you all for your answers.
What I meant is that they sound just plain boring and undynamic. And not neccessarily only with rockmusic but also classical or even a flamenco guitar. I don't know if this is just about SPL.
I wonder if it has anything to do with the hopeless load they offer, that it is more a question of the amplifier being unable to deliver than the panels themselves. Having said that, I have build a KT88 tube amp with 1:8 OPT that is connected directly to the panels and eventhough this is a big improvement over the 2x50W SS amp I used before it doesn't fundamentally change the sound in this respect.
I have a sub (as you can see here) but it hasn't helped to bring the music to life. It does add some bass though
Thanks for the clarification. I guess my experience is a bit different from yours. The first thing I noticed when firing up my newly constructed ESL panels was how dynamic they seemed, at least in the midrange and treble. All the percussive sounds seemed to just pop out from the music in a way I hadn't heard with any of my previous dynamic speakers. They reminded me more of horns than of any other speaker type. That led me to wonder if the impedance matching between the driver (or horn mouth) and the air load was a deciding factor. Or perhaps low intermodulation distortion--my ESL panels are quite large so the diaphragm displacement is quite small for a given SPL. Of course, with the huge number of variables, it's difficult to nail down one feature as the critical one.
Nonetheless, thanks for raising an interesting question.
That would be the exact opposite of most people's reaction to ESL's.
Good ESL's tend to be quite revealing of the source material, and most rock is poorly recorded.
Yes amps do make a BIG difference. But one must also have enough displacement. It takes big planars to reproduce rock.
If you want "slam" or high dynamic impact then look toward dipoles made with conventional dymanic drivers. Those load into the room like planars, and have more "punch", as long as you have adequate displacement.
Of course you could just get compression horns and be done with it
ESLs can rock for sure...
You need to take into account a few factors though.
The first is that you need to compare apples with apples.
Small ESLs and ESLs driven by smaller amps need to be compared to smaller dynamic speakers. Even the Quad 63 series needs to be compared to smaller dynamic speakers only.
The relative sensitivity (dB/w/1m) and the maximum SPL should be approximately equal for a fair comparison - not the size of the box or size of the panels.
As far as larger ESLs the Acoustat 3, 4 and especially the double stacked 6s and 8s were capable of blowing back your hair with no difficulty. In the case of the 3s F3 is typically 38Hz., with the 4s it is typically 35Hz. and with the larger ones, lower still. These speakers are capable of significantly better low bass than many dynamic speakers and can play in the ~100dB spl range. They can rock. (the down side of the Acoustats were elsewhere - power handling was not one of them)
The other factor when people listen to good ESLs driven by a good signal chain is that they are hearing sound with rather a lot less distortion than *most* dynamic speakers are capable of. The *sensation of loudness* is in part coupled with the perception of distortion products. It is fairly common to find people listening to low distortion speakers are levels that *measure* much higher than one subjectively believes the level is.
Having said all that, imho, for reasons that are completely unclear ESLs do tend to subjectively sound way better when driven from tube amps -good tube amps especially - when compared to good solid state amps. Why that should be so, I dunno, but it works.
_-_-bear
You need to take into account a few factors though.
The first is that you need to compare apples with apples.
Small ESLs and ESLs driven by smaller amps need to be compared to smaller dynamic speakers. Even the Quad 63 series needs to be compared to smaller dynamic speakers only.
The relative sensitivity (dB/w/1m) and the maximum SPL should be approximately equal for a fair comparison - not the size of the box or size of the panels.
As far as larger ESLs the Acoustat 3, 4 and especially the double stacked 6s and 8s were capable of blowing back your hair with no difficulty. In the case of the 3s F3 is typically 38Hz., with the 4s it is typically 35Hz. and with the larger ones, lower still. These speakers are capable of significantly better low bass than many dynamic speakers and can play in the ~100dB spl range. They can rock. (the down side of the Acoustats were elsewhere - power handling was not one of them)
The other factor when people listen to good ESLs driven by a good signal chain is that they are hearing sound with rather a lot less distortion than *most* dynamic speakers are capable of. The *sensation of loudness* is in part coupled with the perception of distortion products. It is fairly common to find people listening to low distortion speakers are levels that *measure* much higher than one subjectively believes the level is.
Having said all that, imho, for reasons that are completely unclear ESLs do tend to subjectively sound way better when driven from tube amps -good tube amps especially - when compared to good solid state amps. Why that should be so, I dunno, but it works.
_-_-bear
'Bear' is spot on about ESL's and their good dynamics...
As a long time user of both ESL's and boxed speakers of the highest calibre (various Accuton ceramic/Raven ribbon/Scanspeak Carbon/Seas Excel magnesium/metal Beryllium/Fostex combinations), I have to say IMO the ESL's are more dynamic than any of these.
This is clearly demonstrated by the ESL's ability to produce more detail (through better transient response of the thin mylar membrane); better tonality (everything sounds 'just right') and the ESL's ability to untangle all the musical strands giving you tight imaging and a separation of the performers on the stage.
In comparing the sound of ESLs and boxed speakers, a lot of people mistake 'dynamics' with 'the ability to play loud'. Granted there is a relationship between loudness and dynamics (depending on the type of music you listen to), but IMO there is a better definition of dynamics. Namely, to me dynamics is about producing good tonality, freedom from distortion, and the ability to shown the smallest inflections and nuances in the recording - the tiniest shifts in pace/rhythm & timing of the performers... this is something the ESLs excel at.
It is easy to buy or build a cone speaker that generally sounds nice and plays loudly. But, trying to find one that produces the abovementioned attributes that an ESL achieves to the nth degree, is VERY DIFFICULT indeed !!
In my audioquest so far, the closest I have found to achieving both loudness capability and ESL-like dynamics is two point source paralleled Fostex 206E's + 11" Eton hexacomb in Bass Reflex boxes, actively driven.
I do not believe that any ESL can ever play loudly enough to keep up with the dBs produced by cone speakers. However, ESLs sound elegant, beautiful and beguiling - and therefore cannot be ignored. In trying to accomodate my love of both ESL's and a liking for louder playing box speakers (when the mood takes me), I have on hand and use both technologies.
Regards,
Steve M.
BTW: I use Transmission Line subwoofers with my ESL as I find that TL bass breathes freely and intrudes less on the ESL's delicate soundfield.
As a long time user of both ESL's and boxed speakers of the highest calibre (various Accuton ceramic/Raven ribbon/Scanspeak Carbon/Seas Excel magnesium/metal Beryllium/Fostex combinations), I have to say IMO the ESL's are more dynamic than any of these.
This is clearly demonstrated by the ESL's ability to produce more detail (through better transient response of the thin mylar membrane); better tonality (everything sounds 'just right') and the ESL's ability to untangle all the musical strands giving you tight imaging and a separation of the performers on the stage.
In comparing the sound of ESLs and boxed speakers, a lot of people mistake 'dynamics' with 'the ability to play loud'. Granted there is a relationship between loudness and dynamics (depending on the type of music you listen to), but IMO there is a better definition of dynamics. Namely, to me dynamics is about producing good tonality, freedom from distortion, and the ability to shown the smallest inflections and nuances in the recording - the tiniest shifts in pace/rhythm & timing of the performers... this is something the ESLs excel at.
It is easy to buy or build a cone speaker that generally sounds nice and plays loudly. But, trying to find one that produces the abovementioned attributes that an ESL achieves to the nth degree, is VERY DIFFICULT indeed !!
In my audioquest so far, the closest I have found to achieving both loudness capability and ESL-like dynamics is two point source paralleled Fostex 206E's + 11" Eton hexacomb in Bass Reflex boxes, actively driven.
I do not believe that any ESL can ever play loudly enough to keep up with the dBs produced by cone speakers. However, ESLs sound elegant, beautiful and beguiling - and therefore cannot be ignored. In trying to accomodate my love of both ESL's and a liking for louder playing box speakers (when the mood takes me), I have on hand and use both technologies.
Regards,
Steve M.
BTW: I use Transmission Line subwoofers with my ESL as I find that TL bass breathes freely and intrudes less on the ESL's delicate soundfield.
Steve M said:
It's important to disect Steve's last comment... it is untrue the cone speakers are generally produce higher SPLs than do ESLs.
Some cone speakers are capable of higher SPLs. Others are quite obviously not going to do that - depending upon the ESL of course.
Cabinet size for size, cones will produce more output.
Which will have lower distortion at normal listening levels?
But for most listening, up into the <110db peak range there are ESLs that are completely capable - of course they require more voltage swing to reach those peak levels, which in practice implies a high power amplifier.
I think it is safe to say that most people listen at levels that average ~90dB SPL, and not louder, which makes higher max SPL systems rare and not necessary for most people. (there are exceptions)
_-_-bear
Yeah, and?
What is your point?
But as far as your Bose 901?? I guarantee that there are ESLs that will produce higher SPLs and wider bandwidth with lower distortion than Bose 901s, maybe even using less amplifier power.
Comparing to PA/SR speakers is clearly not a reasonable comparison.
_-_-bear
What is your point?
But as far as your Bose 901?? I guarantee that there are ESLs that will produce higher SPLs and wider bandwidth with lower distortion than Bose 901s, maybe even using less amplifier power.
Comparing to PA/SR speakers is clearly not a reasonable comparison.
_-_-bear
two magical qualities
Brett
You said:
"If you want electrostatic clarity, and the ability to rock, get horns"
I'm interested in horns, but don’t know a lot: what horn system do you have/ do you suggest - that possesses those two magical qualities?
Or anyone, what ESL or ESL hybrid system might do this?
Brett
You said:
"If you want electrostatic clarity, and the ability to rock, get horns"
I'm interested in horns, but don’t know a lot: what horn system do you have/ do you suggest - that possesses those two magical qualities?
Or anyone, what ESL or ESL hybrid system might do this?
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