Dear all,
two years ago I built my own DIY "full range" ESL loudspeakers. They are not really full range, but they operate from 75 Hz to 14 kHz.
I changed my ESL's for a second hand, cheap, but very impressively sounding (in my opinion) sounding Mission bookshelf speakers. They lack the extreme clarity of the stats, but they sound much more relaxed to me.
Last week I connected my DIY esl's again, and also a set of Final hybrids. Both sound fatiquing, the DIY stats more fatiquing than the Finals. I listend to female opera and when played at moderate level the louder parts with higher vocal ranges sound very distored when played through my DIY stats.
I used secondhand Audiostatic transformers, two 1:75 per channel making 1:150 step up per panel.
I don't own an oscilloscope and I lack some tranfomer theory / knowledge. Im considering to build a hybrid esl system because I'm still not satisfied with the lower range as it sounds a little thin. And if I'm correct a smaller panel and lower turn ratio will result in a nicer load to the (solid state) amplifier.
But before starting a new project I would like to learn about what is causing the fatiguing sound / distortion. I've read multiple times on the web that ESL panels inherently don't sound fatiguing / distortive. Do you agree on that? Should a well designed ESL audio system never sound fatiguing?
If a well desinged ESL should not sound particulary fatiguing, the distortion could be caused in these devices if I'm correct:
* amplifier
* DSP (I use an active DSP filter, MiniDSP 2x4 HD to compensate the subtle rising freqency response, I adjusted it to -1dB/oct from 1kHz upwards)
* transformer
* ESL panel
I would expect the distortion(s) caused by the tranformer and / or the panels. I'm just wondering how to start my reseach. I'm currenlty looking for a secondhand oscilloscope so I hope to own one soon. I would like to check the amplifier for DC offset and get more knowledge about transformer core saturation, phase shifting, LC resonance and so on. I would like to use the scope to see whats happening on the secondary side of the transformer by creating a custom winding on the transformer and connecting it to the scope.
So summarized I would like to know about your opinion about the fatiguing sound of my ESL panels: is this a general property of ESL's? I'm also interested in stories from other DIY-ers that experienced similar experiences?
two years ago I built my own DIY "full range" ESL loudspeakers. They are not really full range, but they operate from 75 Hz to 14 kHz.
I changed my ESL's for a second hand, cheap, but very impressively sounding (in my opinion) sounding Mission bookshelf speakers. They lack the extreme clarity of the stats, but they sound much more relaxed to me.
Last week I connected my DIY esl's again, and also a set of Final hybrids. Both sound fatiquing, the DIY stats more fatiquing than the Finals. I listend to female opera and when played at moderate level the louder parts with higher vocal ranges sound very distored when played through my DIY stats.
I used secondhand Audiostatic transformers, two 1:75 per channel making 1:150 step up per panel.
I don't own an oscilloscope and I lack some tranfomer theory / knowledge. Im considering to build a hybrid esl system because I'm still not satisfied with the lower range as it sounds a little thin. And if I'm correct a smaller panel and lower turn ratio will result in a nicer load to the (solid state) amplifier.
But before starting a new project I would like to learn about what is causing the fatiguing sound / distortion. I've read multiple times on the web that ESL panels inherently don't sound fatiguing / distortive. Do you agree on that? Should a well designed ESL audio system never sound fatiguing?
If a well desinged ESL should not sound particulary fatiguing, the distortion could be caused in these devices if I'm correct:
* amplifier
* DSP (I use an active DSP filter, MiniDSP 2x4 HD to compensate the subtle rising freqency response, I adjusted it to -1dB/oct from 1kHz upwards)
* transformer
* ESL panel
I would expect the distortion(s) caused by the tranformer and / or the panels. I'm just wondering how to start my reseach. I'm currenlty looking for a secondhand oscilloscope so I hope to own one soon. I would like to check the amplifier for DC offset and get more knowledge about transformer core saturation, phase shifting, LC resonance and so on. I would like to use the scope to see whats happening on the secondary side of the transformer by creating a custom winding on the transformer and connecting it to the scope.
So summarized I would like to know about your opinion about the fatiguing sound of my ESL panels: is this a general property of ESL's? I'm also interested in stories from other DIY-ers that experienced similar experiences?
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It is not a general property of esls.
I know about audiostatic and these transformers are OK. Just realize they are designed for a segmented esl which is a rather easy electric load. If you hook them up to an unsegmented panel you may go wrong. But I dont think this will translate into distortion unless impedance plummets to below 1 ohm and your amplifier is not gonna like that.
Talking about amplifier, probably most likely the one that generates the distortion. Maybe you could borrow another amplifier which has proven to work well with esls. Esls are more difficult to drive than dynamic speakers so the same amplifier can do a good job on your dynamic speakers while having poor sound on the stats.
Core saturation: you will hear that with deep bass not with higher vocals
Panel itself: must be incredibly bad to generate audible distortion
I know about audiostatic and these transformers are OK. Just realize they are designed for a segmented esl which is a rather easy electric load. If you hook them up to an unsegmented panel you may go wrong. But I dont think this will translate into distortion unless impedance plummets to below 1 ohm and your amplifier is not gonna like that.
Talking about amplifier, probably most likely the one that generates the distortion. Maybe you could borrow another amplifier which has proven to work well with esls. Esls are more difficult to drive than dynamic speakers so the same amplifier can do a good job on your dynamic speakers while having poor sound on the stats.
Core saturation: you will hear that with deep bass not with higher vocals
Panel itself: must be incredibly bad to generate audible distortion
Hi Martin-Jan,
thanks for your reply and directions. I have another amplifier so I will test that one as well. I used segmented wire stators and a 2 ohms series resistor at the primary of the tranformer.
Good to know that the transformers should be OK.
I hope to get hold of an oscilloscope and get more insight soon.
thanks for your reply and directions. I have another amplifier so I will test that one as well. I used segmented wire stators and a 2 ohms series resistor at the primary of the tranformer.
Good to know that the transformers should be OK.
I hope to get hold of an oscilloscope and get more insight soon.
Hi, I just connected another amp and now the distortion starts at a higher volume level. So it indeed seems to be the amplifier having difficulties driving my stats.
I could either buy a more stable amp or transform my "full range" els's to hybrid ones using smaller transformers.
Right now I'm wondering which affordably priced amps would be suided to drive the difficult load of an ESL? I've read about the Quad 303 amp that would be able to drive even the most difficult loads:
1 Ohm stable amplifiers (inexpensive) | Audioholics Home Theater Forums
I'm just wondering if there are people here that have experience with this amp? Or any recommendations for other affordably priced (secondhand) amps?
I could either buy a more stable amp or transform my "full range" els's to hybrid ones using smaller transformers.
Right now I'm wondering which affordably priced amps would be suided to drive the difficult load of an ESL? I've read about the Quad 303 amp that would be able to drive even the most difficult loads:
1 Ohm stable amplifiers (inexpensive) | Audioholics Home Theater Forums
I'm just wondering if there are people here that have experience with this amp? Or any recommendations for other affordably priced (secondhand) amps?
Fatigue being an individual experience may be hard to define in measurable parameters. However it may correlate with poor recordings, IHD, higher order HD, cross-over artefacts in the mid-range and the upper mid-range dB too hot.
ESL can be very low in fatigue despite having a highly revealing quality that is often associated with fatigue with certain tweeters. They benefit from potentially having very low distortion and no crossover in the mid-range.
Your ESL might be running too hot in the frequency sweep only going down to 75Hz and also suffer from being over driven.
You might like to measure your ESL frequency response and distortion.
A fix may be to run your ESL as a two way with an eg OB "Sub" and a crossover to unload the ESL under 150Hz allowing both a better frequency response and the ESL driven less hard with less distortion in the amp/trannies/panel.
I hope you enjoy sorting it out and are rewarded with sublime listening.
ESL can be very low in fatigue despite having a highly revealing quality that is often associated with fatigue with certain tweeters. They benefit from potentially having very low distortion and no crossover in the mid-range.
Your ESL might be running too hot in the frequency sweep only going down to 75Hz and also suffer from being over driven.
You might like to measure your ESL frequency response and distortion.
A fix may be to run your ESL as a two way with an eg OB "Sub" and a crossover to unload the ESL under 150Hz allowing both a better frequency response and the ESL driven less hard with less distortion in the amp/trannies/panel.
I hope you enjoy sorting it out and are rewarded with sublime listening.
A hybrid esl doesnt garantee an easier load. For example my logans dip to 1 ohm. You also mentioned problems with the Finals.
It is not only a matter of being able to drive low impedance but also a capacitive load. I used a monarchy zero feedback in the past and it worked well on stats. But there will be plenty of others.....
Much well-intentioned advice without a sense of what the problem is. I think the moderators should exclude this kind of thread unless the OP provides some solid basis before wasting everybody's time.
An o'scope will definitely reveal any distortion above 10%, on a good day.
But honourware REW that nearly everybody in this forum uses can immediately reveal problems even just using a laptop mic.
Don't bother us until you go to that little bit of effort.
B.
An o'scope will definitely reveal any distortion above 10%, on a good day.
But honourware REW that nearly everybody in this forum uses can immediately reveal problems even just using a laptop mic.
Don't bother us until you go to that little bit of effort.
B.
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