Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Curved Electrostatic Speaker V2 Build
Curved Electrostatic Speaker V2 Build
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12th February 2018, 07:28 PM   #21
CharlieM is offline CharlieM  United States
diyAudio Member
 
CharlieM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Savannah, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVWERK View Post
If you get a chance to listen to the Sanders flat panel system anywhere near you , spend an hour of critical listening and you should come away with the best top to bottom performance of any ESl out there.
Easily trounces curved panel designs
Unpolluted first arrival times are more important than wide dispersion design that de focus image size creation.
Easy to hear tight image placement in 3D space with flat panels vs.CP,s

I,m sure Jazzman,s design is close in sound quality being similiar in construction.

Regards
David
If I were to bypass the segmentation resistor network in my speaker, it would sound very much like Roger Sanders' model 10 speaker. Especially since I followed Roger's guidelines for matching the woofer to the panel.

But whereas Sanders speaker is purposely designed to project a narrow/planar wave front, my symmetrically segmented wire panel is designed to project a curved cylindrical wave front. It's dispersion pattern is actually wider and smoother than a curved Martin Logan panel.

A cool option with segmented wire panels is the ability to configure them with selectable wide and narrow dispersion modes. This is quite easy to do by merely installing a multi-pole switch to defeat (jump over) or enable (leave engaged) the segmentation resistors. I actually did this with my previous welding rod panels; although I didn't bother adding the switch feature to my current wire panels (I may yet do that).

Switching between modes is a bit of a hassle though because the panel's response is naturally flat with the segmentation resistors engaged (wide mode) but has a rising response which requires EQ'ing back to flat when the resistors are defeated. The EQ'ing hassle is reduced significantly if you have a DSP with memory presents for the EQ's. Since the mode switch is on the high-voltage side of the transformer, switching modes has to be done with power off, lest arcing destroy the switch.

Last edited by CharlieM; 12th February 2018 at 07:38 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2018, 07:39 PM   #22
AVWERK is offline AVWERK  United States
diyAudio Member
 
AVWERK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: So Calif.
Best of both worlds and my next project amongst many.
Sounds like the perfect blend of compromises and choice.
Two big thumbs here !

Regards
David

Last edited by AVWERK; 12th February 2018 at 07:40 PM. Reason: .
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2018, 08:49 AM   #23
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Utrecht
Quote:
Originally Posted by AVWERK View Post
Unpolluted first arrival times are more important than wide dispersion design that de focus image size creation.
Easy to hear tight image placement in 3D space with flat panels vs.CP,s

I,m sure Jazzman,s design is close in sound quality being similiar in construction.

Regards
David
While curved esls can have better dispersion it doesnt mean you get a 'polluted first arrival'. Certainly not when keeping them away from a sidewall.
It has been suggested that wide dispersion speakers have better imaging as the indirect soundfield is more balanced and becomes less obtrusive as a consequence.
Also many flat panels use electronic methods to increase dispersion, for example electric segmentation (audiostatic), delay lines (quad)
__________________
drs M.J. Dijkstra
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2018, 05:00 PM   #24
AVWERK is offline AVWERK  United States
diyAudio Member
 
AVWERK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: So Calif.
Most speakers will sound and image better when secondary reflections are minimized IE. Pulled away for side walls etc. And imaging cues come generally from higher frequencys that paint the outline. A 1” dome “wide” dispersion tweeter in comparison to 9” wide curved panel producing the same signal is physically impossible IMHO to produce tight sound image outlines coming off a piece of curved 9” Mylar. A small physical point source just does imaging better overall , ala, mini monitors, so wide dispersion is not an enemy in and of itself.
Attempting to make a big sheet do the same thing and get the same sound field
Illusion is not what I personally hear.

At our Newport hiend show a few years ago ML had their new Neolith playing and right down the hall the Sanders system and it was interesting to go back and forth listening.
The Ml sounded big and vague in outline textures and still sounded great but the Sanders was clearly better defined and detailed and I can only come to the conclusion that keeping all secondary reflections at bay any way you get it just gets you closer to accuracy.
That “triangle” of setup or headphone experience just sounds more detailed. Some like the Bose type effect I guess

Been going to CES for over 30 years and have heard just about everything and start to narrow down what impresses you and the reasons why and it’s all good fun and you make your choices.

(BTW , I have yet to apply your sauce to the Quad panels but getting there)

Regards
David
  Reply With Quote
Old 13th February 2018, 09:00 PM   #25
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
i think there are some measurements here floating around about a curved panel not even having that great dispersion as one might think
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2018, 09:04 AM   #26
tyu is offline tyu  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieM View Post
If I were to bypass the segmentation resistor network in my speaker, it would sound very much like Roger Sanders' model 10 speaker. Especially since I followed Roger's guidelines for matching the woofer to the panel.

But whereas Sanders speaker is purposely designed to project a narrow/planar wave front, my symmetrically segmented wire panel is designed to project a curved cylindrical wave front. It's dispersion pattern is actually wider and smoother than a curved Martin Logan panel.

A cool option with segmented wire panels is the ability to configure them with selectable wide and narrow dispersion modes. This is quite easy to do by merely installing a multi-pole switch to defeat (jump over) or enable (leave engaged) the segmentation resistors. I actually did this with my previous welding rod panels; although I didn't bother adding the switch feature to my current wire panels (I may yet do that).

Switching between modes is a bit of a hassle though because the panel's response is naturally flat with the segmentation resistors engaged (wide mode) but has a rising response which requires EQ'ing back to flat when the resistors are defeated. The EQ'ing hassle is reduced significantly if you have a DSP with memory presents for the EQ's. Since the mode switch is on the high-voltage side of the transformer, switching modes has to be done with power off, lest arcing destroy the switch.

Jazzman or anyone... can you say why" SPECTRA" ... is not a better way to setup the Diy segmented panel.....using just (two res)..one front an one on the back for just half of the panel?...
Would this give us a "real curved" output to any segmented panels?

I have had the Audiostat segmented panels...Setup like jazzmans panels
an the Spectra type...that give a more coherent sound ...to my ear .
Thanks.... for any an all input on getting better sound from ESLs

THEORY & PRACTICE OF SPECTRA OPERATION
Spectra 11-1100 represents a very high state of perfection
of electrostatic hybrid loudspeakers.
Theintedacetechniques allowing the Symmetric Pair
Electrically Curved Transducer (SPECTRA) mode
of operation were only perfected in late 1986.
At that time Acoustat made a quantum leap in the
productof STEP-UP EFFICIENCY and BANDWIDTH
which allowed for fhe first time a combination of
traditional Acoustat high pedormance with the halfcentury
old ideal of VARIABLE GEOMETRY operation.
This breakthrough solved the long standing impasse
which had not allowed high SPL electrostats to have
optimum behavior at all audio frequencies.
You will find Spectra has wide, pleasant dispersion at
all frequencies, razor-sharp high-frequency time
alignment, and clean low bass.
Spectra achieves this by effectively changing size
and shape at different frequencies. Spectra is about
3" wide at highest frequencies and about 9" wide at
middle frequencies. The lowest frequencies aresmmothy transitioned to an 8" dynamic woofer.
Spectra's excellent midrange results from the magic
of wave physics which causes the 9" of array operatiinal
at these frequencies to act dispersively for
waves leaving both the front and the rear of the array.
Spectra is devoid of the midrange beaming common
in planar speakers using large flat midrange radiators.

Last edited by tyu; 14th February 2018 at 09:17 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2018, 10:24 AM   #27
CharlieM is offline CharlieM  United States
diyAudio Member
 
CharlieM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Savannah, GA
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyu View Post
Jazzman or anyone... can you say why" SPECTRA" ... is not a better way to setup the Diy segmented panel.....using just (two res)..one front an one on the back for just half of the panel?...
Would this give us a "real curved" output to any segmented panels?

I have had the Audiostat segmented panels...Setup like jazzmans panels
an the Spectra type...that give a more coherent sound ...to my ear .
Thanks.... for any an all input on getting better sound from ESLs

THEORY & PRACTICE OF SPECTRA OPERATION
Spectra 11-1100 represents a very high state of perfection
of electrostatic hybrid loudspeakers.
Theintedacetechniques allowing the Symmetric Pair
Electrically Curved Transducer (SPECTRA) mode
of operation were only perfected in late 1986.
At that time Acoustat made a quantum leap in the
productof STEP-UP EFFICIENCY and BANDWIDTH
which allowed for fhe first time a combination of
traditional Acoustat high pedormance with the halfcentury
old ideal of VARIABLE GEOMETRY operation.
This breakthrough solved the long standing impasse
which had not allowed high SPL electrostats to have
optimum behavior at all audio frequencies.
You will find Spectra has wide, pleasant dispersion at
all frequencies, razor-sharp high-frequency time
alignment, and clean low bass.
Spectra achieves this by effectively changing size
and shape at different frequencies. Spectra is about
3" wide at highest frequencies and about 9" wide at
middle frequencies. The lowest frequencies aresmmothy transitioned to an 8" dynamic woofer.
Spectra's excellent midrange results from the magic
of wave physics which causes the 9" of array operatiinal
at these frequencies to act dispersively for
waves leaving both the front and the rear of the array.
Spectra is devoid of the midrange beaming common
in planar speakers using large flat midrange radiators.
Sorry Tyu but I’m not familiar with the SPECTRA configuration. Even if I were, it would probably take someone with better math skills than me to analyze it. I do recall, however, reading a post on this forum (I forget whether it was Golfnut or Bolserst) which indicated that, for symmetrically segmented panels, more/narrower segments gives smoother/wider dispersion -- but there is no advantage in making the segments narrower than the shortest treble wavelengths (about 12mm).

Just speculating here-- but I gleaned from your description of the SPECTRA that it may consist of just one 3” HF section and one or two 9” LF sections; which would equate to just two electrical segments of differing widths. If so, the SPECTA would have a different and perhaps narrower dispersion pattern compared to my 15-section / 8-segment panels.

Many (including me) would say that a narrow dispersion panel actually gives better imaging, coherency and slam when listening from the exact focal sweet spot—because there are fewer secondary reflections bounced from room surfaces. Of course; this very characteristic makes an extreme directivity panel (like the Sanders model 10 for example) great for solo listening at the focus but not so good for entertaining guests.

It could be that the SPECTRA panel has enough dispersion to alleviate the ‘head-in-a-vice’ effect, yet still has relatively narrower dispersion than other segmented panels, and that sounds better to you (it might sound better to me too). I would love to hear a SPECTRA speaker.
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2018, 12:36 PM   #28
MJ Dijkstra is offline MJ Dijkstra  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Utrecht
You may compare a curved speaker with a flat one, but what makes it sound different? I mean you are comparing two esls with probably entirely different components like transformers, different construction materials, crossover components, mylar thickness etc. etc. In the past I build unsegmented esls; quite beamy as a consequence. They also had more powerfull high mids and trebles so yes I could here 'more detail' compared to the unsegmented version.
You could compare 2 esls which only differ in having their panels bend or not but as the bending changes the frequency response it still is tricky.
__________________
drs M.J. Dijkstra
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2018, 02:08 PM   #29
tyu is offline tyu  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
I find the SPECTRA type setup to fall under the ...Less is more-better....panels sound.
The idea of... one wire flat panels... with one cute in the middle of the wire... to give two electrical segments on each side ...that's is 4ea inputs wires....on one 9"wide panel..this give a mylar output area of 6" per side.... like the Acoustat SPECTRA panel...we take.. two input, one front, one same side on back... feed from the same one step up trans secondary... thought two res....the other two wire segments inputs... feed the full output...this puts the full output on all 6" this is a the trick...

So what do the res do...setup up a time delay...that the ear must hear as a 6"curved panel...from ea side front an back..... this gives the best flat panel eaze of drive...an to my ear the most natural tone...

But in the end....ML curved panels to my ear...with what ever trans..crossover...amp...room....wins ...the less is more ...argument...
yes the curved panel... it can be called low-mid-high fi....becase of it weard output from the back side being...I don't know but being concave..an not convex...that would give the full Circle like the spectra....

But Man...don't we know.... all these ESLs are a lot of Fun... if you are in this hobby ....an live for great sound every day like I do..
thanks for all your input
  Reply With Quote
Old 14th February 2018, 03:22 PM   #30
AVWERK is offline AVWERK  United States
diyAudio Member
 
AVWERK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: So Calif.
On segmented panels, has anyone examined what happens to an impulse or tone burst generated frequency bursts ?
Is there a difference in comparison to it being driven full range without seg. ?

Regards
David
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Curved Electrostatic Speaker V2 BuildHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Clearwave RBR curved cabinet build pop4richard Multi-Way 23 19th June 2018 11:48 AM
Curved Electrostatic Speaker Build DriedChalk Planars & Exotics 46 10th February 2018 11:41 PM
lectrostaComplete newbie.. Cheapish electrostatic speaker build zunehdrocks Planars & Exotics 18 2nd June 2014 08:59 PM
Rythmik curved sub build Jdot Subwoofers 19 26th May 2014 04:50 PM
Curved Small Thor Build Renron Multi-Way 102 20th January 2008 01:03 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki