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Old 1st June 2017, 06:40 PM   #21
Greebster is offline Greebster  United States
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Have been using the 700 planars as mids for about a year now. Lovely for mids active minidsp
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Old 4th June 2017, 11:26 AM   #22
audiomagnate is offline audiomagnate  United States
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Originally Posted by Greebster View Post
Have been using the 700 planars as mids for about a year now. Lovely for mids active minidsp
My Monsoon-midded monsters sound terrific! They're only doing 238 to 1,980Hz (LR4 with a DCX 2496) so they're not asked to do too much.
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Old 4th June 2017, 12:58 PM   #23
TNT is offline TNT  Sweden
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https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co.../amt17d1.1.jpg

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Old 4th June 2017, 02:11 PM   #24
audiomagnate is offline audiomagnate  United States
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I don't understand the reason for your post.
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Old 22nd July 2017, 12:12 AM   #25
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
Thanks.
I'm still a bit puzzled by the CSD... looks quite different from the BG Neo8, which decays quite rapidly.
I am surprised to see no hint of a cavity resonance which is pretty much a "feature" of all push-pull magnetic planars. Is the 5dB EQ you mention hiding it perhaps?
Id be interested to see a near field and/or 1m measurement without the EQ in place if you have the time and interest.
I had the opportunity to measure some M700s last weekend. Enjoy!

Attachment #1: Polar response data was measured @ 1.5m with a 4mS window. You can see that the M700 does have a cavity resonance like most push-pull magnetic planars.

Attachment #2: Compared to the BG Neo8, the cavity resonance isnt as pronounced(due to the higher %open area of the plates) but is a bit lower in frequency

Attachment #3: The 30deg off-axis data seems to line up pretty well with response data posted at the beginning of this thread. Perhaps that is why the cavity resonance wasnt noticeable.

Attachment #4: CSD plots for on-axis and 30deg off-axis looks very similar to what I had seen with the Ne08. Not sure what the cause of the hashy CSDs posted at the beginning of this thread.

Attachment #5: Polar map using data measured every 5deg, compared with theoretical polar response for an ideal rectangular piston.
If interested in theory, see:
Vertical dispersion on planars. How much?

Attachment #6: Polar map using data measured every 5deg, compared with theoretical polar response for an ideal rectangular piston adding diffraction from the metal frame using BTM diffraction method. Including the diffraction calculations does a surprisingly good job of matching the features of the measured polar map.
If interested in BTM diffraction method, see:
Baffle edge diffraction with dipole radiation
Attached Images
File Type: png Monsson_M700_response.png (25.6 KB, 221 views)
File Type: png Monsson_M700_vs_Neo8.png (37.2 KB, 217 views)
File Type: png Monsson_M700_30deg_compare.png (156.1 KB, 190 views)
File Type: png Monsson_M700_CSDs.png (125.4 KB, 191 views)
File Type: png Monsson_M700_Polar_vs_sinc.png (184.1 KB, 186 views)
File Type: png Monsson_M700_Polar_vs_BTMdiffration.png (196.0 KB, 28 views)
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Old 22nd July 2017, 12:16 AM   #26
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by audiomagnate View Post
I don't understand the reason for your post.
See Post#17 and Post#19
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Old 22nd July 2017, 11:42 AM   #27
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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Monsoon - Surprisingly Good!
Bolserst's plots look really good. And that colour waterfall illustration is a Tufte-worthy meaningful display, even if the results are only so-so.

I'm not sure how to understand polar plots. You can't hear beaming. You hear what gets to your seat. That is a combination of direct sound and bounced sound and time course (and your taste in sound too). Just because a polar plot is horrible doesn't mean the sound at your seat is bad.

If you follow the Geddes argument, you'd want stringent control of the direct sound propagation (like using his waveguide treble). That way the bouncing sound is better controlled and so you know what you are getting at your seat from knowing the direct FR.

But starting with planar drivers, you can see how Patrick Bateman and some manufacturers are trying to sort out this problem.... if it is a problem?

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Last edited by bentoronto; 22nd July 2017 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 24th July 2017, 07:48 PM   #28
Atom666 is offline Atom666  Canada
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Thanks Bolerst
I've been looking for that type of measurement for a long time. I'm looking at using 9 or 10 in a line source with a Magnepan ribbon tweeter after completing a few other projects first.
Thanks
Andrew
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Old 25th July 2017, 04:03 AM   #29
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
…I'm not sure how to understand polar plots. You can't hear beaming. You hear what gets to your seat…
The polar plot displays at a glance the response at all radiation angles relative to each other. This allows better understanding of the tonal balance of the sound getting to your seat directly, and via room reflections. If the source has non-uniform coverage or uneven response off-axis(and you aren’t listening in an anechoic chamber) it will affect what you hear at your seat in a negative way. You might consider revisiting Part 2 of the Toole book. Also, as we’ve discussed in other threads, if the beaming is excessive like with 12” wide ESLs, you will also have to deal with the issue of small head movements changing the tonal balance. I don’t think the M700s fall in that category, although they would need to be aimed at the listening position and would not be good for sharing a movie soundtrack with the family on a couch.

Quote:
If you follow the Geddes argument, you'd want stringent control of the direct sound propagation (like using his waveguide treble).
Beaming from large, flat, uniformly driven radiators result in directivity increasing progressively with increasing frequency. This is not controlling the direct sound in the manner that Geddes recommends. In fact when I have shared data for ESLs with polar maps like this his response has been …”why would anybody design a loudspeaker like that?” Attached is a comparison with the Geddes NS15(New Summa). You can see that the NS15 has nearly uniform coverage over the +/-45deg wave guide angle. Beyond that, the frequency response continues to stay flat, just reducing in level.

If I remember correctly, Patrick Bateman owns a pair of the original Summa.
So he would be in a good position to comment on the polar response comparison.
Attached Images
File Type: png M700_vs_NS15.png (190.1 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by bolserst; 25th July 2017 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 25th July 2017, 04:06 AM   #30
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Originally Posted by Atom666 View Post
I've been looking for that type of measurement for a long time. I'm looking at using 9 or 10 in a line source with a Magnepan ribbon tweeter after completing a few other projects first.
Glad to hear you found the measurements useful.
Your project sounds like fun. Where are you sourcing all those Monsoon drivers from?
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