Hi Guys,
Been wanting to ask & talk about this for sometime. Hope that you guys
can enlighten me with your wisdom. Technology has improved vastly & yet
most speakers be hi end or low are still stuck with dome tweeters in either 2 or 3 way etc. Yes I too started with those speakers but as I acquire more knowledge it became clear to me that putting aside efficiency, what is needed to produce natural sound is surface area of the transducers be it
planar magnetic, esl etc. There's also the question of crossover phase issues & suck outs from multi way speakers. Example my ML Odyssey 2 way hybrid crossing over the esl panel at 250hz at least from here up to 20k it's full
range with no phase issues or suck outs.
So my question, why are manufacturers as well as our friends over at the multi way forum still dwelling into such designs
Thks
Been wanting to ask & talk about this for sometime. Hope that you guys
can enlighten me with your wisdom. Technology has improved vastly & yet
most speakers be hi end or low are still stuck with dome tweeters in either 2 or 3 way etc. Yes I too started with those speakers but as I acquire more knowledge it became clear to me that putting aside efficiency, what is needed to produce natural sound is surface area of the transducers be it
planar magnetic, esl etc. There's also the question of crossover phase issues & suck outs from multi way speakers. Example my ML Odyssey 2 way hybrid crossing over the esl panel at 250hz at least from here up to 20k it's full
range with no phase issues or suck outs.
So my question, why are manufacturers as well as our friends over at the multi way forum still dwelling into such designs
Thks
Loudness wars? 
I'm only half joking, seems to me, pure SPL is a major part of people sticking with dynamic type transducers/speakers, at least on the other (AVS) forum I'm a member of...
First time I heard an ESL though, that was it, no better type of speaker in my mind. And I still hold this opinion.
However, I have to admit that getting the most out of my latest ESL, SPL-wise, was a goal in the design process.
There's other things too, just look at all the 'myth-busting' that companies like Martin Logan feel the need to include in their FAQ/information.
ESLs are 'messy' and complicated to most people. Just the fact that a speaker needs to have excuses, or need further explanations turns people off, I think.
You'll hear things like:
"You mean I have to plug them into the wall socket?"
"Isn't that much voltage dangerous?"
"You mean only one or two people can listen at a time?"
"If it's humid in the house, the speakers won't work?"
I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
I'm only half joking, seems to me, pure SPL is a major part of people sticking with dynamic type transducers/speakers, at least on the other (AVS) forum I'm a member of...
First time I heard an ESL though, that was it, no better type of speaker in my mind. And I still hold this opinion.
However, I have to admit that getting the most out of my latest ESL, SPL-wise, was a goal in the design process.
There's other things too, just look at all the 'myth-busting' that companies like Martin Logan feel the need to include in their FAQ/information.
ESLs are 'messy' and complicated to most people. Just the fact that a speaker needs to have excuses, or need further explanations turns people off, I think.
You'll hear things like:
"You mean I have to plug them into the wall socket?"
"Isn't that much voltage dangerous?"
"You mean only one or two people can listen at a time?"
"If it's humid in the house, the speakers won't work?"
I could go on and on, but you get the idea.
Thanks Wreckingball
For me it's about the quality of the playback. What's the point of having
high spl if it sucks. If one looks way back into dynamic speaker designs,
the true masters to me is the Altec A7. Look at the 15 inch woofer that
goes all the way to 800 hz crossing over to the compression driver which
goes all the way up to around 16k. Now to me that is technology. Seems
like its going backwards these days. Oh & look at how efficient they are
Cheers
For me it's about the quality of the playback. What's the point of having
high spl if it sucks. If one looks way back into dynamic speaker designs,
the true masters to me is the Altec A7. Look at the 15 inch woofer that
goes all the way to 800 hz crossing over to the compression driver which
goes all the way up to around 16k. Now to me that is technology. Seems
like its going backwards these days. Oh & look at how efficient they are
Cheers
Can you supplement your idiosyncratic arm-chair speculations with some freq response data?
Dayton-Wright ESLs came as close as anything I am aware of in reaching for full-range performance and with no freq separation*. But significantly falling short at both ends of the compass. With audio wave-lengths of 50 feet to .05 foot hard to picture a speaker mechanism that can handle it.
B.
*later models had little horn super-tweeters in the boxes
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"So my question, why are manufacturers as well as our friends over at the multi way forum still dwelling into such designs "
The pistons will likley always be the majority by a wide margin. They are small,reliable,inexpensive, and done well will have a very good perf. The "others" although perhaps better in some ways are not (except in extreem examples) better by such a huge margin as to persuade manufactures to change course.
In the end there are sooo many variables to good sound that are out of control of the speakers design (room, equipment, recording etc) not to mention aesthetics, that on a practical level you quickly reach a point of diminished returns and the basic piston type transducer fits the overall scheme of things best.
The pistons will likley always be the majority by a wide margin. They are small,reliable,inexpensive, and done well will have a very good perf. The "others" although perhaps better in some ways are not (except in extreem examples) better by such a huge margin as to persuade manufactures to change course.
In the end there are sooo many variables to good sound that are out of control of the speakers design (room, equipment, recording etc) not to mention aesthetics, that on a practical level you quickly reach a point of diminished returns and the basic piston type transducer fits the overall scheme of things best.
Some of us feel "other" kinds of drivers are better and by a huge margin, whatever the obstacles to their commercialization.
Cute to hear your single-factor theory for THE reason ESLs etc aren't more commonly manufactured.
B.
Well it might be easy to misinterpret what Im saying.
I too am a fan of the "others". In fact so much so that I spent many years developing a ribbon and recently was awarded a patent on the design and started a small company around the technology. So what I say about the pistons wide spread acceptance is simply what I see, not an agenda in any way.
I too am a fan of the "others". In fact so much so that I spent many years developing a ribbon and recently was awarded a patent on the design and started a small company around the technology. So what I say about the pistons wide spread acceptance is simply what I see, not an agenda in any way.
Its what I would call wide range tweeter or maybe better called a mid range/tweeter. It can be used from 500 hz on up.
Many years ago I wanted to bring a ribbon to market. However I decided that there was no point unless something truly new was developed that would allow a smaller ribbon to be used down to at least 1 khz or lower. Basically this meant that the standing wave activity that creeps in below about 1.5 khz had to be handled without adding a bunch of mass. After about 20 years of madness I made a discovery that went a long way to taming these resonances and instabilities.
Many years ago I wanted to bring a ribbon to market. However I decided that there was no point unless something truly new was developed that would allow a smaller ribbon to be used down to at least 1 khz or lower. Basically this meant that the standing wave activity that creeps in below about 1.5 khz had to be handled without adding a bunch of mass. After about 20 years of madness I made a discovery that went a long way to taming these resonances and instabilities.
About the WAF making owning ESLs almost impossible, I'm envisioning exceptions, or at least one that *could* be waf-friendly..
Something the size of a ML panel that could reach down to 80hz, then matched with a corner sub from there on down. This would be instead of a panel that needs the woofer directly underneath it.
It'd need to be eqed to reach that, not widened, because that'd kill waf again.
Course, this all depends on what kind of WAF you have..
Meh, just thinking out loud before I'm off to work..
Something the size of a ML panel that could reach down to 80hz, then matched with a corner sub from there on down. This would be instead of a panel that needs the woofer directly underneath it.
It'd need to be eqed to reach that, not widened, because that'd kill waf again.
Course, this all depends on what kind of WAF you have..
Meh, just thinking out loud before I'm off to work..
I have to admit the ML panel is easy on the eyes. The issue with the curved panel is a more limited diaphragm movement per surface area meaning to go that low it requires a larger panel with or without EQ.
a while back I was working on a planer magnetic curved panel. Looks are soo important that I was actually widening the space between the conductor traces just a bit so as to lend at least a bit of that see through property. It just makes the panel more acceptable in room. Anyway it was a curved panel BUT instead of the "flat" surface, the diaphragm was corrugated so that the diaphragm could expand and contract in and out much more easily. With EQ that one could go lower. The extra space taken up by the diaphragms thickness due to corrugations may be an issue in electrostat design and its stator spacing to get good sensativity.
a while back I was working on a planer magnetic curved panel. Looks are soo important that I was actually widening the space between the conductor traces just a bit so as to lend at least a bit of that see through property. It just makes the panel more acceptable in room. Anyway it was a curved panel BUT instead of the "flat" surface, the diaphragm was corrugated so that the diaphragm could expand and contract in and out much more easily. With EQ that one could go lower. The extra space taken up by the diaphragms thickness due to corrugations may be an issue in electrostat design and its stator spacing to get good sensativity.
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Understood about the curved panels and excursion.
I picked ML on a purely "looks" basis, nothing more.
They are probably the easiest on the eyes of any ESL that I know of...
A flat segmented panel could kick more low-end I would guess, but laws of physics gets in the way of high SPL if eq'ed that much.
Maggies are another that could possibly pass WAF if grills could be made to look like decorative dividers, I would think..
Any DIY Maggies out there that anyone knows of? Never seen any myself..hmm..
Also, I thought the old Carver Ribbons (the tall ones) were pretty sleek-looking, and sounded great IMO..
(only heard once, many moons ago)
More thinking out loud, haha, carry on...
I picked ML on a purely "looks" basis, nothing more.
They are probably the easiest on the eyes of any ESL that I know of...
A flat segmented panel could kick more low-end I would guess, but laws of physics gets in the way of high SPL if eq'ed that much.
Maggies are another that could possibly pass WAF if grills could be made to look like decorative dividers, I would think..
Any DIY Maggies out there that anyone knows of? Never seen any myself..hmm..
Also, I thought the old Carver Ribbons (the tall ones) were pretty sleek-looking, and sounded great IMO..
(only heard once, many moons ago)
More thinking out loud, haha, carry on...
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The first time when I lay eyes on the Ascent & Odyssey I knew that I just
had to have it. Well Odyssey has been with me till now. It's been super good
to me no issue accept the slipping panels which I've sorted out. Given it's age
the side wooden trimmings are a little warp but all else is good. Did some tweaks that did improve Sq smoother much less grainy. Will build an Ascent
cross over to try soon. As suggested by TYU it sounds better.
There you have it if bought used one can get it for cheap & still be able to compete with those crazy priced speakers of today. Ever wonder why the
Neolith resembles Prodigy, Odyssey, Ascent range ? LOL something to think
about ya. For me none of the later models sound as good regardless of the
hype
Cheers
had to have it. Well Odyssey has been with me till now. It's been super good
to me no issue accept the slipping panels which I've sorted out. Given it's age
the side wooden trimmings are a little warp but all else is good. Did some tweaks that did improve Sq smoother much less grainy. Will build an Ascent
cross over to try soon. As suggested by TYU it sounds better.
There you have it if bought used one can get it for cheap & still be able to compete with those crazy priced speakers of today. Ever wonder why the
Neolith resembles Prodigy, Odyssey, Ascent range ? LOL something to think
about ya. For me none of the later models sound as good regardless of the
hype
Cheers
I actually have a full range planer/ mid tweeter design thats sitting doing nothing for now. The bass is different in that it has the linearity and sensativity of a push pull design but with 1/2 the magnet count.
Was ready to pull the trigger on bringing that one to market but decided the panel has such a shrinking customer bass that it was best to move ahead with a small monopole ribbon for now.
That was hard decision but every time I tested I always found myself with two large objects a minimum of 4-5 feet into the room before any justice was done. Sure could get interesting sound at a more acceptable 3 feet in BUT Ive never heard a panel yet that didnt sound right till more like 4-5 feet out. In the typical living situation the writing was on the wall. There just too room dominating for 90% of the world.
I still plan to move on them in future as the bass design is a real threat imo but for now im gona wimp out and stick to the box ha
Was ready to pull the trigger on bringing that one to market but decided the panel has such a shrinking customer bass that it was best to move ahead with a small monopole ribbon for now.
That was hard decision but every time I tested I always found myself with two large objects a minimum of 4-5 feet into the room before any justice was done. Sure could get interesting sound at a more acceptable 3 feet in BUT Ive never heard a panel yet that didnt sound right till more like 4-5 feet out. In the typical living situation the writing was on the wall. There just too room dominating for 90% of the world.
I still plan to move on them in future as the bass design is a real threat imo but for now im gona wimp out and stick to the box ha
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