Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Planars & Exotics ESL's, planars, and alternative technologies

Quad ESl63 coating
Quad ESl63 coating
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 23rd October 2015, 04:37 PM   #1
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
Default Quad ESl63 coating

Ok for god sake. another coating question.

But for all people still looking for the right conductive carbon black ink.

Tatoo ink! the filler type called number 12 is loaded. when used without delution i get 200k Ohm or something. but deluting is till hard to maintain conductivity.


I then ordered 2 bags of carbon black from a pigment manufacture for paints. 200 grams for 20 euro. thats enough to last a lifetime.

But of course its not THAT easy. getting the carbon to disperse or suspend in a medium is not easy at all.


choice of binder is hard to. i use some acrylic paint from local hardware store. but not all acrylics work(tried 5 most stopped conductivity complete). spraying the coating is even harder then brushing on with a foam brush.


with a foam brush in 2 layers i manage to get 3-15 Mega ohm with an airbrush i get nothing or 1mega ohm or waaaaaaay lower.

i have like 20 cups standing in my shed with all different mixes...... maybe quad used some graphite as well. since my coating looks more black then there's. could also be they used clear acrylic, or used only acrylic medium whitch is white colourish. i used black arylic.


does anyone have some tips to make the paint more sprayable? i tried acrylic alcohol. acrylic water and tension breaker. and acrylic water alcohol. but they all kinda suck. mylar is hard to spray on without getting droplets. it either has to dry instant or form a wetting film before drying without pulling the carbon back to the wettest spot on the film.
  Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2015, 08:11 PM   #2
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
Ok i made some improvements. but its nasty... (the smell, i do need a breathing mask soon)

I now used Polyurethane/acetone/and carbon black.

i could get ranges from 12 K Ohm to 110 M ohm. but there is a fine balance between conductive to unreadable on my crappy meter. also acetone dries fast.. very very fast. anyone know of something to calm it down a notch ? so it can wet a bit better ?

now the acetone and urethane dries instantly when it hits the Mylar, that's nice, but it looks like some of the carbon is ending up outside the binder of the urethane. witch leaves a very brittle(more like coating with carbon on top) coating. when you move your finger over it you can assure its black or brownish.

when applied with a brush , the coating is more tacky, and becomes more solid by the (30) minutes. it takes time to completely dry out(bottle says 24 hours). but not or not much of carbon black is released when rubbed.


1.5 part urethane 16 parts of acetone and (very scientific) 1 Thea spoon carbon black(need a more precise scale) applied with a brush in 2 cm wide stroke, ends up with a 110 M ohm coating.

The urethane used it 1 component witch has low viscosity, and is thinned down as it is so it seems. it is used for making concrete watertight in basements.

Last edited by WrineX; 23rd October 2015 at 08:32 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2015, 01:05 AM   #3
geraldfryjr is offline geraldfryjr  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jackson,michigan
When I was experiamnting with graphite Water and PVA glue I had to add a few drops of Dawn dishshoap to get it to wet the mylar proerly without beading up.

That is how I make my non-corroding Charge Rings.

jer
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2015, 03:26 AM   #4
alexberg is offline alexberg
diyAudio Member
 
alexberg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Guys,
the problem with carbon is the particles' shape. It should be either flake or fiber like. Otherwise it would not be in contact with each other.
In regard to charge ring: use carbon paint in cans Graphite 33 or the like. Masking tape and you get highly conductive flexible trace. The bad: nothing sticks to graphite paint.
Again try to activate film surface if possible.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2015, 09:55 AM   #5
esl 63 is offline esl 63
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
First there is a lot supplyers of diluted carbon black one is DEGUSSA.
DEGUSSA as an example, have a variety of dilutions both water based and alcohole based.
Regarding handeling of all types of carbon black, is that you have to grind it very fine, and if you store a can long enough, weeks or month you have to grind it again!
So to be on the safe side, have a good chat with the supplyer and order fresh stuff. Dont bother if it is so thin at some places after you applied it that its nearly transparant, really fine grinded carbon is transparant and still dissipative!
I have done lots of experiments together with MTAUDIO when we had a workshop together (repairing 63s), and we believe that the original QUAD coating is still one of the best there is... but even though, i believe that QUAD could do some improvements by taking advice from chemical experts.

Last edited by esl 63; 24th October 2015 at 10:00 AM. Reason: spealinng corraktiön
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2015, 10:44 AM   #6
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
quad uses either graphite or carbon. and i must say there coating is pretty low resistance still around 6 Meg to 20 M, but then again who cares they work.


DEGUSSA now called Evonik, the product catalog says they don't handle carbon black as a product anymore.... also the plant in the Netherlands is gone.
  Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2015, 08:51 PM   #7
esl 63 is offline esl 63
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Cabotcorp is another company that sells carbon black.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2015, 03:49 PM   #8
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
Ok i tried some different things. i got a cheap mixer/blender(the handheld ones) to try and do some high shear mixing. and i bought some acrylic medium without any pigments. i would love the coating to be all water based. for my health and the earth marketing crap.... but really the fumes from some thinners really scream dont breath me in or drop me.

The mixer be it a shitty one (since i dont want to ruin my good blender) does not get to 10000 rpm my guess so maybe later on i extract the shaft with the blades. most mixers use a 6 mm shaft which fit in my collet of my old spindle motor for the cnc, witch can go from 8000 to 22000 rpm. more then enough, and 800watt is also more then enough for a small batch. another benefit is that the motor fits the clamp of a a drill press. so i can mix the stuff for half an hour without any problems. i think my cheap blender will fry when i want to run it for 30 min

i think i might be able to disperse the carbon pretty good in the end for not much money at all. i just used the mixer for like 5 or 10 minutes. so i think the new motor and longer mixer would improve things even more.
  Reply With Quote
Old 26th October 2015, 06:30 PM   #9
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
diyAudio Member
 
WrineX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Den Haag
hmm i just found an page about adhesion of acrylic to plastics. and its rather good. almost excellent on mylar.

http://wordpress.justpaint.org/wp-co.../Page10_11.jpg
  Reply With Quote
Old 29th November 2017, 05:53 PM   #10
AVWERK is online now AVWERK  United States
diyAudio Member
 
AVWERK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: So Calif.
Old post yes same issue today

Did anyone ever find a workable consistent coating in the end ?
Simple Licron Crystal ?
I do have professional spray equipment and know how to spray if needed.
The nylon coating of the 57,s doesn,t work on the further spacing distance of the 63/988 panels from research and looking at my own examples of each panel construction. Very high resistance 57,s and lower megohm range on the 63/988

I now ask because I am in the process of refurbishing a set of 988,s that use the same panel construction as the 63,s
The usual perimeter pulling away of the pcb material Behind the Mylar constitutes a new membrane to be made
I could reglue, but on some of them, it has pulled away towards the center area
And really want to remake all of them rather than one or two only to have issues develop on the others later down the road..,
It looked like the grids along with the nylon mess were hot glued in one shot at the factory.

These particular stock panels peak resonance is 74 hz and have already made a new panel jig (perimeter air tube style ) to get same close specs before coating.

So in 2017 , what coating now consistently works on these style panels ?

Appreciate any comments from those that have BTDT on the 63/988 panels

Regards
David
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Quad ESl63 coatingHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
green coating on the ESl63 kopper traces ? what is it WrineX Planars & Exotics 7 18th September 2015 10:34 AM
rebuilding quad esl63 chris james Planars & Exotics 2 27th November 2013 03:04 PM
Quad esl63 problem diagnosing. graeme uk Planars & Exotics 10 17th December 2009 05:44 PM
Quad ESL63 / 989 405man Planars & Exotics 26 2nd August 2007 04:30 PM
Quad Esl63 rebuild SumTingsBurning Planars & Exotics 6 19th May 2004 03:26 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:45 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.79%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2018 diyAudio
Wiki