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Old 8th November 2015, 09:01 PM   #21
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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I know these guys need to make money to but almost 600 dollars !? We can all build those for a fraction. Rather sell the transformers for a good price since that's the only price bottle neck for all of us. Pleaaaaasssee someone design a good mid/ high trannie with ratio 1/100 and I am willing to wind 25 pieces for free for the people that contribute to the buying of the needed materials. Cored/wire/bovines/insulation etc the one that design with the to be used materials will receive , 10 winded for free as well . I don't mind winding , I am just low on cash and knowledge of transformer design, i Dont mind some labour

These panels are nice for people that don't have the tools knowledge or time to make there own , maybe then the price is right but here in this forum I guess it's overpriced insanely.
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Old 9th November 2015, 07:53 AM   #22
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Well, it's about 400 euro's a pair, surely not really cheap. For someone that regularly makes these things, it's probably a no brainer. But if your new to this, you'll likely make a few mistakes, and will have to make a few prototypes before you get a good working one. You'd have to account for that cost too. Also I think it is hard to buy the materials in the quantities needed for two small panels? Could be wrong though...

Still nothing about the actual qualities of the panels in question though
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Old 9th November 2015, 09:37 AM   #23
geraldfryjr is offline geraldfryjr  United States
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Smaller panels are cheaper and easier to build than larger ones by far.
There are just a few simple rules to follow, and the biggest one is don't skimp on the Stator coating, but again that is true for any ESl build.

Electrically segemented panels are the best way to go.
But for simpilicity sake a 3"-4" wide panel ( preferable the smaller 3" wide version or even 2.5' wide) can be made to perform very well no mater what the length is for the midrange and on up.

Just remember that such a design must be used with a woofer is all.

For my very First panels I used plastic Lighting Grate (1/2" egg crate stuff ) and common Alu. window screen materail for my stators and the results I have explained many times over in these threads, in two words, Simply Amazing!!!
And cheap!!

Each 3.25"x9.75" panel didn't cost me but $5 a piece and that is having enough materail to build atleast 4 pair !!

Then my second method uses a little PCB materail, Plexiglass for the frames and some TIG rod for the stator's, another extremely inexpensive method.

WrineX used some PCB materail for his design and it turned out with some very excellent results as well.

Yes, it is a bit time consuming to manually drill all of those holes in the PCB materail but it can be done very easily and cheaply as well !!!

The highest cost of building an ESL system regardless of their size is of course the electronics to drive them, but we have that coverd pretty good in these threads as well.

It can be done for a fraction of what those ready made ones cost!!

As far as coming op with a transformer design I can help to guide you on this as I have it fiugred out pretty much.

Just let me know what size and kind of cores you can get in your area and what your lowest frequency of choice would be as well as you maximum voltage at the lowest frequency of choice as well.

If you don't mind winding them, remember the largest core you can afford to start with you will have the least amount of turns you will have to wind.

That also goes for the higher the lowest frequency is the lesser amount of turns as well.

Also a larger core will allow you to have a thicker interwinding insulation and this will help to keep your transformer capcitance down for a nice wider bandwidth and higher impedance on the higher end.

Especially when you are talking about smaller panels, where the transformers capacitance is the dominating factor.

jer

Last edited by geraldfryjr; 9th November 2015 at 09:41 AM.
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Old 9th November 2015, 10:10 AM   #24
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Thx Gerald! And Yes 4 real you might be right ! Usually it will cost some money to get what you want.

And Gerald about the winding , I see allot of simple ei transformers that work pretty ok also small c cores . I personally am looking for insane cheap from 300 ha to 20khz. As a basic trannie. It will fit most Diy needs ofc it's not the best. Ah well cheapest way would be contacting a Chinese company I guess. I just can believe that the transformers used in every cinercial esl is such s huge factor of the production price . it limits the use of a esl in affordable hybrid esls
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Old 9th November 2015, 10:43 AM   #25
4real is offline 4real  Netherlands
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Thanks Jer for the good insights! You know, you guys here unintentionally throw up a huge barrier for us noobs: the projects I see here are at quite a high level of craftmanship! You guys really seem to know what you are doing. The prospect of matching that is quite daunting

Your spirt is quite infectious though, I'll look into ways of making some panels myself
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Old 9th November 2015, 11:44 AM   #26
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Go for iT 4real, any info Or help needed ( if i can ,I still remain full of questions ) you can contact me if you want , since we share our native language I believe .
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Old 9th November 2015, 06:36 PM   #27
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrineX View Post
...personally am looking for insane cheap from 300 ha to 20khx
You mention the frequency bandwidth of interest, but to determine the tranformer design you also need to define the maximum load capacitance. The typical size of an unsegmented hybrid ESL panel is 12" x 48"(30.5cm x 122cm) with D/S = 1/16" (1.6mm) has a capacitance of around 1200pF. Is that what you had in mind?

What is the smallest gauge wire you can wind perfect layers? Can you handle #36 AWG magnet wire?
Also do you have access to 2μm mylar insulation tape? and are you able to include specified layers of insulation tape between each layer of the secondary?
If so, a fairly straightforward 80:1 transformer design could be wound with SU60b core and dual bobbins for driving 1200pF.
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Old 9th November 2015, 10:03 PM   #28
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Thx bolsert ! usefull as always!


Well the 36 awg, i winded 0.3 mm so far, halving that would be possible i guess when i wind a bit slower, but must admit never tried it. i can understand that it might be a pain in the ***
I always used Nomex as insulation layers. between every layer.

Only thing i thought about today is that i might be moving to another city. the current winding machine is on loan. and there might be a possibility i have to return it. (i guess so) but not all is lost. since i know a few things about cnc , i could make a new machine for just winding. although this might be a more future project.

Bolsert i was thinking about diving into my stacked esl once more, so it wont be such huge panel. so capacitance will be allot lower. i thought about maybe halve the one you are using as example. to make a mid high frequency unit that can work with big woofers.

by the way does d/s spacing matter to the capacitance ? also it will be slightly segmented.

a tweeter is also still an option unsigmented ofcourse, but that would be resulting in almost no capacitance. lets say diameter of 5 cm times 4-6 menbrames. (not possible on my older version but waiting on materials to try something new)
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Old 12th November 2015, 09:19 PM   #29
bolserst is offline bolserst  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WrineX View Post
...i was thinking about diving into my stacked esl once more, so it wont be such huge panel. so capacitance will be allot lower. i thought about maybe halve the one you are using as example. to make a mid high frequency unit that can work with big woofers...by the way does d/s spacing matter to the capacitance ? also it will be slightly segmented.
Yes, capacitance increase linearly with increasing area and decreasing D/S.
ESL capacitance calculation
With stacked ESLs, capacitance increases linearly with number of diaphragms stacked.

Unfortunately, the design of a step-up transformer is greatly dependent on the load you are wanting to drive. A one-size-fits-most transformer for hybrids will be a compromise in HF and LF bandwidth, and also will be more a more difficult load for the amplifier than if the transformer is optimized for the load it will drive.

Once you have moved and are ready to wind, send me a PM and we can work out details for a transformer that will be useful for your ESLs and not be too challenging to wind.
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Old 13th November 2015, 07:44 AM   #30
WrineX is offline WrineX  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bolserst View Post
Yes, capacitance increase linearly with increasing area and decreasing D/S.
ESL capacitance calculation
With stacked ESLs, capacitance increases linearly with number of diaphragms stacked.

Unfortunately, the design of a step-up transformer is greatly dependent on the load you are wanting to drive. A one-size-fits-most transformer for hybrids will be a compromise in HF and LF bandwidth, and also will be more a more difficult load for the amplifier than if the transformer is optimized for the load it will drive.

Once you have moved and are ready to wind, send me a PM and we can work out details for a transformer that will be useful for your ESLs and not be too challenging to wind.
OOoh wow nice Bolsert! Thank you very much ! i will definitely come back on the subject. since this is my biggest hurdle. the rest i can make prototypes and test, but transform design is way out of my league.

Looks like i got another project on my list.. new winding machine. i will first dive into the stacked esl to get a feel what i am aiming for andwhat the load might be!

Thanks in advance Bolsert! helpful as always !
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