Hello to everyone. After 13 years of several horn and SET rigs I decided to go back to Acoustats which I enjoyed from 1986 to 2001. I had both Acoustat 2+2's which I sold and Acoustat 1+1's which I kept. The 1+1's were kept in the back part of my basement. I would clean them on ocassion and about twice a year bring them into my soundroom and have then playing for a few days then go back to the horn and SET amps. Recently I decided I want to simplify things and get away from crossovers and extra amps. I have a line on a pair of 2+2's with Medallion transformers. When my previous 2+2's sold the Audio Research and Krell amps I used were sold soon after. Right now I am using a Bryston 3B NRB which is about 125 wpc into 8 ohms on the 1+1's. I realize the Bryston is not the best match although it doesn't sound too bad and surprisingly doesn't get too warm at comfortable levels. I wanted to get some opinions on some of the high current amps that you would recommend with the 2+2's. I have been looking at some Jeff Rowland and Mark Levinson amps. I have read some good things about these two. Any other insights would be appreciated.
Well, I've very little experience with the high end ($$) power amps, but after I bought my pristine Model 3's a few months ago, I bought a used Odyssey Plus amp and had Klaus replace the main board, add more PS caps and tweak the whole thing. Sounds great - no complaints and it hasn't gotten hot (but I haven't done any 100dB cranking yet).
Acoustat and Horns
A marriage of ESL and horn make a great speakers!
Acoustat 1+1, and Tad2001. Acoustat driven with Futterman OTL, Tad2001 driven with SE845 10W and a sub below 70Hz.
Horn speaker greatest sonic failure I think is due to the use of Dynamic woofer (usually 12 or 15in) trying to catch up compression driver speed and detail. The disadvantage on Acoustat (beaming, narrow sweetspot) and a typical horn system (sluggish bass, lower midrange) have totally eliminated.
In this simple setup, the 1+1 is crossed at 900Hz, the Tad from 900Hz up, the combination sounds so wonderful, very balanced, sounded more like a full range Electrostatic system rather than horn. Low level resolution and detail is amazing. This is a first experiment of combining ESL and horn, will open the door to a more sophisticated ESL/horn setup in the future.
A marriage of ESL and horn make a great speakers!
Acoustat 1+1, and Tad2001. Acoustat driven with Futterman OTL, Tad2001 driven with SE845 10W and a sub below 70Hz.
Horn speaker greatest sonic failure I think is due to the use of Dynamic woofer (usually 12 or 15in) trying to catch up compression driver speed and detail. The disadvantage on Acoustat (beaming, narrow sweetspot) and a typical horn system (sluggish bass, lower midrange) have totally eliminated.
In this simple setup, the 1+1 is crossed at 900Hz, the Tad from 900Hz up, the combination sounds so wonderful, very balanced, sounded more like a full range Electrostatic system rather than horn. Low level resolution and detail is amazing. This is a first experiment of combining ESL and horn, will open the door to a more sophisticated ESL/horn setup in the future.
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interesting
Hi Unison845, In my previous horn set up I would sometimes use the Acoustats as the low end with the Oris horns. I really liked the way it sounded. I never crossed as high as 900hz because the Oris 150's were good to about 160hz so I would cross the Acoustat's between 160hz and 220hz. Thers just seemed to be a discontinuity between the bass horns and Oris horns so that led me back to the 1+1's to run full range.
Hi Unison845, In my previous horn set up I would sometimes use the Acoustats as the low end with the Oris horns. I really liked the way it sounded. I never crossed as high as 900hz because the Oris 150's were good to about 160hz so I would cross the Acoustat's between 160hz and 220hz. Thers just seemed to be a discontinuity between the bass horns and Oris horns so that led me back to the 1+1's to run full range.
Blgtrio, if your Oris horn has cutoff frequency of 150Hz, I would cross at least 300Hz or above.
My horn has cutoff frequency of 400Hz, it never sounded right at close to cutoff frequency, I started at 2Khz crossover point and vary the crossover frequency down to the point that the tonal balance of the whole speaker does not change (with 2Khz as reference) and found out 900Hz is probably the minimum that I would go down.
Another thing is that your Oris driver is not a compression driver and might not has the speed to match the Acoustat therefore might not blend as well.
Amplifier for the Acoustat also play a very important role too, after trying couple amp, I found that the Futterman OTL, and high power 845 sounded best, much better than solid state amp.
Blgtrio;3888972]Hi Unison845, In my previous horn set up I would sometimes use the Acoustats as the low end with the Oris horns. I really liked the way it sounded. I never crossed as high as 900hz because the Oris 150's were good to about 160hz so I would cross the Acoustat's between 160hz and 220hz. Thers just seemed to be a discontinuity between the bass horns and Oris horns so that led me back to the 1+1's to run full range.[/QUOTE]
My horn has cutoff frequency of 400Hz, it never sounded right at close to cutoff frequency, I started at 2Khz crossover point and vary the crossover frequency down to the point that the tonal balance of the whole speaker does not change (with 2Khz as reference) and found out 900Hz is probably the minimum that I would go down.
Another thing is that your Oris driver is not a compression driver and might not has the speed to match the Acoustat therefore might not blend as well.
Amplifier for the Acoustat also play a very important role too, after trying couple amp, I found that the Futterman OTL, and high power 845 sounded best, much better than solid state amp.
Blgtrio;3888972]Hi Unison845, In my previous horn set up I would sometimes use the Acoustats as the low end with the Oris horns. I really liked the way it sounded. I never crossed as high as 900hz because the Oris 150's were good to about 160hz so I would cross the Acoustat's between 160hz and 220hz. Thers just seemed to be a discontinuity between the bass horns and Oris horns so that led me back to the 1+1's to run full range.[/QUOTE]
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full range
I agree with you about the speed. I've decided to make things simple and just use the 1+1's. I used to own 2+2's and have been looking for a pair that is for sale but seems the ones for sale now are on the west coast. I'll just have to be patient and hope some become available soon. Happy listening, Blair
I agree with you about the speed. I've decided to make things simple and just use the 1+1's. I used to own 2+2's and have been looking for a pair that is for sale but seems the ones for sale now are on the west coast. I'll just have to be patient and hope some become available soon. Happy listening, Blair
I would think the Brystons would be fine. The Sanders ESL Amp reminded me a lot of the Bryston - lotsa power....you can also get yourself a Hafler Transnova amp like the P7000 or P9500 (later gen Acoustat Transnova amps - still strickland designed too). Why bother with an overpriced Acoustat TNT200 when you can get the P9500 or the P7000?
Also a good Tube amp would be advisable. I used a Quicksilver GLA tube amp (40 wpc) with my Model 3 and was quite happy...
Also a good Tube amp would be advisable. I used a Quicksilver GLA tube amp (40 wpc) with my Model 3 and was quite happy...
I tried a modified dynaco ST70 and it play comfortably in 12X15 room due to soft clipping of tube.
I am in the work for modifying a pp845 to drive to 1+1 directly to the stator bypassing acoustat medalion transformer. Should be interesting.
I am in the work for modifying a pp845 to drive to 1+1 directly to the stator bypassing acoustat medalion transformer. Should be interesting.
jumping between horns and dipoles is not a bipolar brain disorder
DIVERSITY ... best describes the loudspeaker market.
The power response of a speaker is the total of both its off-axis and on-axis amplitude response. It is the total acoustical power that is radiated into space. Many believe that the total radiated acoustic power by the speaker system should be constant over as wide a frequency range as possibly. Apogee Full Range, Linkwitz LX531, JohnK NoteII... well reviewed dipole speakers maintain a dipole ratiation pattern over a very wide frequency range.
Dipole and Cardiod and Horn speaker push more of their acoustic power at_the_listener than into_the_room. This is heard as greater clarity and dynamics by most listeners.
The on axis, free space directivity factor for sound sources with several common free space radiation patterns are as follows: Monopole: DF = 1.0, Dipole: DF = 3, Cardioid: DF = 3, 90x90 Horn: DF=8.27. What this means is that if these three different sources are to radiate the same total acoustic power then if the monopole has an on axis intensity of 1.0 the dipole and cardioid will have an on axis intensity of 3.0 or 4.77 dB greater, and the horn will have an on axis intensity of 8.27 or 9.2 dB greater. Conversely, if the difference sources are to have the same on axis intensity then the dipole and cardioid will radiate 1/3 the acoustic power of the monopole, and the horn 1/9 the acoustic power of the monopole. When studying room acoustics and reverberation this means that the "critical distance" from the speaker will be greater for a dipole or cardioid or horn than for a monopole. The "critical distance" is the distance at which direct and reflected sound are equal. The level of the reflected sound, above the modal region of the room, is usually considered constant and proportional to the total radiated power. Thus when sitting the same distance from a conventional speaker and a dipole/horn, the dipole/horn can potentially sound more detailed since at the position that ratio of direct to reflected sound is greater.
When DF is not frequency dependent, it would follow that a monopole midrange or satellite speaker should be match with a monopole woofer, a dipole with a dipole, and a horn with a horn.
DIVERSITY ... best describes the loudspeaker market.
The power response of a speaker is the total of both its off-axis and on-axis amplitude response. It is the total acoustical power that is radiated into space. Many believe that the total radiated acoustic power by the speaker system should be constant over as wide a frequency range as possibly. Apogee Full Range, Linkwitz LX531, JohnK NoteII... well reviewed dipole speakers maintain a dipole ratiation pattern over a very wide frequency range.
Dipole and Cardiod and Horn speaker push more of their acoustic power at_the_listener than into_the_room. This is heard as greater clarity and dynamics by most listeners.
The on axis, free space directivity factor for sound sources with several common free space radiation patterns are as follows: Monopole: DF = 1.0, Dipole: DF = 3, Cardioid: DF = 3, 90x90 Horn: DF=8.27. What this means is that if these three different sources are to radiate the same total acoustic power then if the monopole has an on axis intensity of 1.0 the dipole and cardioid will have an on axis intensity of 3.0 or 4.77 dB greater, and the horn will have an on axis intensity of 8.27 or 9.2 dB greater. Conversely, if the difference sources are to have the same on axis intensity then the dipole and cardioid will radiate 1/3 the acoustic power of the monopole, and the horn 1/9 the acoustic power of the monopole. When studying room acoustics and reverberation this means that the "critical distance" from the speaker will be greater for a dipole or cardioid or horn than for a monopole. The "critical distance" is the distance at which direct and reflected sound are equal. The level of the reflected sound, above the modal region of the room, is usually considered constant and proportional to the total radiated power. Thus when sitting the same distance from a conventional speaker and a dipole/horn, the dipole/horn can potentially sound more detailed since at the position that ratio of direct to reflected sound is greater.
When DF is not frequency dependent, it would follow that a monopole midrange or satellite speaker should be match with a monopole woofer, a dipole with a dipole, and a horn with a horn.
Apogee Diva have superior bass than Acoustat 2+2.... I have heard both in a few different rooms. Got Watts?
From Absolute Sound review by Anthony Cordesman:
"At Sound By Singer, the Apogee Divas had excellent bass power, extension, and definition. They lacked the Infinity IRS Series V's and Duntech Sovereign 2001's sheer ability to move air, but they went very low indeed and did so with remarkable speed and control. The Divas exhibited excellent bass performance at high levels down to about 25Hz. In fact, the Divas nearly matched the IRS Series V in being able to deliver the entire bass without any coloration or power loss in the mid-bass and the upper bass/lower midrange. Baritone voice, cello, piano, and bass guitar all had excellent performance-with the exception of some minor irregularities in bass response. The Diva in my home system has shown me that these irregularities are the inevitable cost of trying to place a full-range bipolar speaker in anything but very large or specially treated rooms.
The bass of the Divas had a very fast attack with excellent control. This speaker did not quite have as much power in the deep bass as the IRS or Sovereign and could not resolve individual bass frequencies quite as well as the IRS, but this would only be apparent in comparatively few recordings. What is important is that the Apogee Divas have the right balance of bass energy without overhang or exaggeration. This came through quite clearly in listening to Jazz at the Pawn Shop, Grusin's "Fratelli Chase," and a wide range of other material where natural bass is more important than sheer bass impact. With the right setup, the bass of the Apogee Divas can sound like live music at virtually every listening level short of deafening-and with virtually any kind of music material."
Back then, I heard the Scintilla, Duetta and Diva with amps such as Krell, Levinson and Rowland, and these ribbons never have a balanced sound, it is so bass heavy!
In the review, AHC contradicted himself by fist raved about Apogee bass then later stated that it does have bass irregularities!
If you like bass then you might like these speakers, but if you want a balanced sound, you might have to look elsewhere. I remmenber somebody tested these Apogee and found out the speakers has a bass peak of 10db or more!!!
Linesource: it is amazing to me that your mathematical description of bipolar/horn speakers is exactly what I heard in the Acoustat/horn setup: clarty, speed, detailed sound , additionally the "venetian blind" effect of Acoustat (which I believe is Acoustat major weakness) been eliminated when the Tad/horn take over at 900Hz.
Blgtrio: tomorrow I am picking up a pair of 2+2 (I was actually looking for another pr of 1+1 to use on both side of the horn) should be very interesting.
In the review, AHC contradicted himself by fist raved about Apogee bass then later stated that it does have bass irregularities!
If you like bass then you might like these speakers, but if you want a balanced sound, you might have to look elsewhere. I remmenber somebody tested these Apogee and found out the speakers has a bass peak of 10db or more!!!
Linesource: it is amazing to me that your mathematical description of bipolar/horn speakers is exactly what I heard in the Acoustat/horn setup: clarty, speed, detailed sound , additionally the "venetian blind" effect of Acoustat (which I believe is Acoustat major weakness) been eliminated when the Tad/horn take over at 900Hz.
Blgtrio: tomorrow I am picking up a pair of 2+2 (I was actually looking for another pr of 1+1 to use on both side of the horn) should be very interesting.
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Blgtrio,
I got the 2+2 today and setup in my room to compare with the 1+1. Playing it with a pair of 845PP, I notice the 2+2 is more efficient, from bass up to mid, it is much better than the 1+1, sounds much fuller. I will try to integrate them with a TAD/horn pretty soon.
PS: I also pick up a pair of Acoustat Servo amp, will get them update with new caps before power them up, would be interesting to compare the Servo amp against my 845PP direct coupled to the Acoustat.
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2+2's
Unison845, I owned the 2+2's back in 1986 till 2002. I sold them to fund a horn project. I will be taking delivery of the 2+2's I came across in the next month. The guy is delivering them to me, so just waiting for his schedule to work out. I'm glad you are enjoying the 2+2's. I 've read several discussions about the servo amps vs. MK-121. I'll be anxious to hear your opinionon the servo's once you get them back and running.
Unison845, I owned the 2+2's back in 1986 till 2002. I sold them to fund a horn project. I will be taking delivery of the 2+2's I came across in the next month. The guy is delivering them to me, so just waiting for his schedule to work out. I'm glad you are enjoying the 2+2's. I 've read several discussions about the servo amps vs. MK-121. I'll be anxious to hear your opinionon the servo's once you get them back and running.
Acoustat 6's
Unison845, have you played the 1+1's and rhe 2+2's together at the same time. It would be like having model 6's. I'll bet the wall of sound is huge and the bass is shaking the room. I used to run my 2+2's and 1+1's together and it was awesome. I'm looking forward to doing it again.
Unison845, have you played the 1+1's and rhe 2+2's together at the same time. It would be like having model 6's. I'll bet the wall of sound is huge and the bass is shaking the room. I used to run my 2+2's and 1+1's together and it was awesome. I'm looking forward to doing it again.
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