Hello folks,
I have a set of Martin Logan speakers with the curved panels.
Are there any guidelines to setting up the backwards tilt of the speakers? I know as a function of time Martin Logans have been tilting more and more back, although I am not sure if that is just for aesthetic reasons.
On one hand, if the panel is pointed directly at me (pretty much vertical), then that minimizes the phase difference between the top and bottom of the panel. Yet that also maximally sharpens the front and back wall reflections.
On the other hand, if they are leaned back, then I guess the reflections bounce more out of the ear-level plane, which... I dunno, might give better ambiance? It would be a similar reason who speakers are usually set up not directly pointed at you, but aimed slightly past you. (Although in my case, it seems to sound best when they are toed to aim right at me. Shrug.)
I have a set of Martin Logan speakers with the curved panels.
Are there any guidelines to setting up the backwards tilt of the speakers? I know as a function of time Martin Logans have been tilting more and more back, although I am not sure if that is just for aesthetic reasons.
On one hand, if the panel is pointed directly at me (pretty much vertical), then that minimizes the phase difference between the top and bottom of the panel. Yet that also maximally sharpens the front and back wall reflections.
On the other hand, if they are leaned back, then I guess the reflections bounce more out of the ear-level plane, which... I dunno, might give better ambiance? It would be a similar reason who speakers are usually set up not directly pointed at you, but aimed slightly past you. (Although in my case, it seems to sound best when they are toed to aim right at me. Shrug.)
I try to point the center of the panel towards the listener, ie the backwards tilt angle should be about:
asin(((listener height) - (center height)) / (distance between listener and panel center)).
Another thing to consider is that if the panel is close to the floor higher tilt angle will reduced the floor reflections.
asin(((listener height) - (center height)) / (distance between listener and panel center)).
Another thing to consider is that if the panel is close to the floor higher tilt angle will reduced the floor reflections.
for my ears no or little tilt is preffered for imaging. (only drawback is if ur panels dont reach from floor to ceiling or at least ear hight when standing, is that you will lose high frequency when you stand up) but probable are more theories. i can imaginge that there are some phase shifts when tilted heavy. in the region where the soundwaves are rather small. in the high frequency's. where the menbrame at the botom wich is closer to you is going to be out of phase with top of the menbrame wich is further away from you, when tilted.
then again you are listening to a large panel so not al sound from top to bottom wil reach you ear at the same time, its gets comlicated i guess
then again you are listening to a large panel so not al sound from top to bottom wil reach you ear at the same time, its gets comlicated i guess
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Hi, It may depend a lot on the listening room. Both my ears and a calibrated test mic/spectrum analyzer find that a small tilt, about 5 degrees (one inch to 1.5 inches at the top with reference to the bottom) sounds best with my ML Vistas. The room as mentioned has a high ceiling (9.5 feet) and the width is only 12. These factor in significantly. The MLs are approximately 2.5 feet from the side walls and 4 from the rear. The listening distance is about 10 feet in front of the center line. There are sound treatments behind and to the sides of the panels to slightly reduce the reflections. The panels are aimed just to the sides of the listening position. I found with the panels vertical the sound was kind of "beaming" and was fatiguing to listen to. The tilt did not seem to make a significant change in the sound stage or instrument locations. But as ESLs tend to be different and occasionally difficult critters YMMV.
At least for flat ESL drivers, going orthogonal seems inevitably necessary. You can make various adjustments but staying equally in the beam at all all frequencies seems important as a basis.
I put a little flashlight on my head and position my ESLs so the reflection is right in the middle of the film.
Ben
I put a little flashlight on my head and position my ESLs so the reflection is right in the middle of the film.
Ben
The rake (what you are calling tilt) determines the apparent image height when the backwave reflection (assuming there's a front wall) combines with the front wave. (Getting this wrong so often has given ESLs their reputation for being larger than life.) If it's completely off, it will also affect treble ("ambiance," as you mention, beanbag).
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Hi Ben, I can try. This is probably relating to only ESLs with curved panels. For the angle from the center of the front face of the panels I find mine need to be approximately 10 degrees outside of the center line to the listening position. The more on center they are the less (surprising but it is in agreement with what Martin Logan suggests) high frequency you get. If you cross them inside the center line the treble will go up, but the imaging will suffer as there will be too much in the way of side wall reflections. BTW the complicated formula that ML provides for best placement does not work in my room. For the tilt or rake the angle will be harder to relate to the listening position. The top of my ESLs are approximately 1.5 inches tilted rearward from the front of the base. The amount of rake definitely alters the response. I find that too little will cause an exaggerated treble. Too much will result in a warmer sound. Not unpleasant, but lacking id detail and definition. The exact angle of the rake seems to depend a lot on how high the ceiling is. The distance relates to both reinforcement and reduction of low to middle mid range sound. Very high frequencies have such short wavelengths as to not matter, but mids can have issues. How reflective the ceiling is is also a factor. Smooth ones reflect more. What all this is about is that with ELSs (and other bi-pole speakers) the room reflections are key to good or bad performance. Too much reflected sound results in a spacious but unfocused sound stage. Too little and they sound rather dull. I use lots of anti reflective wall hangings, a large rug in front of the speakers and a sound absorbent panel in between them. (my room is very live) ESLs are a love hate thing with me, I love the sound (when set up well) and hate the process of getting them set up. I don't know if this helps or even answers your questions. I attached a fairly recent photo of the present set up. The white spot on the back drape is from the flash and I have no clue why it showed up there.
Attachments
From what can be seen in the photo, that is a very lively room! Without being in the least judgmental in personal taste or values, I'd say it is far livelier than most domestic settings. It is a very handsome space, but it is sure more of a challenge to make good sound reproduction when the room is prominent sound-wise.
Of course, some different acoustic priorities for dipoles, eh. While dipoles jet-propel you into great ambiance (unlike the efforts needed with shakey-cardboard drivers to achieve good ambiance), you can't think of them as pure point sources.
Ben
Of course, some different acoustic priorities for dipoles, eh. While dipoles jet-propel you into great ambiance (unlike the efforts needed with shakey-cardboard drivers to achieve good ambiance), you can't think of them as pure point sources.
Ben
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