I know, real music is different then test signals.
But don't try 300W long time, these transformers are not made for these conditions. The core will heat up and the wires too. (and the high voltage + arcing is also dangerous)
For a good esl design you not need big amplifiers, just an avarage 50W is more then enough.
An an Quad 303 plays very loud on a Quad esl.
But don't try 300W long time, these transformers are not made for these conditions. The core will heat up and the wires too. (and the high voltage + arcing is also dangerous)
For a good esl design you not need big amplifiers, just an avarage 50W is more then enough.
An an Quad 303 plays very loud on a Quad esl.
Hi,
who talked about 300W??
But You´re right in that a efficient ESL design doesn´t need powerful amps to play very loud -though there seem to be differences about the term ´loud´
My panels -and ML´s probabely too- just warm up where the Quads already end.
The smaller panel with 1.1nF of capacitance and 0.3m² area just needs a well done 20W amp and for the larger panel with its 2.2nF capacitance and 0.6m² membrane area, the merely 50W delivering Kronzilla Tubes are perfectly sufficient to drive the panels close to their limits.
At shows guests always wondered about how just so few Watts could drive such a big ESL-system to ear shattering levels.
jauu
Calvin
who talked about 300W??
But You´re right in that a efficient ESL design doesn´t need powerful amps to play very loud -though there seem to be differences about the term ´loud´
My panels -and ML´s probabely too- just warm up where the Quads already end.
The smaller panel with 1.1nF of capacitance and 0.3m² area just needs a well done 20W amp and for the larger panel with its 2.2nF capacitance and 0.6m² membrane area, the merely 50W delivering Kronzilla Tubes are perfectly sufficient to drive the panels close to their limits.
At shows guests always wondered about how just so few Watts could drive such a big ESL-system to ear shattering levels.
jauu
Calvin
In ancient times, we all used tube output transformers. I still have a bunch - like a pair from the famous ultra-linear Dynaco "Stereo 70" amp and a pair of Thordarson 6V6 transformers are driving my ESL tweets.
Are these transformers suitable for ESLs like we used to think? Or do they have various shortcomings?*
Ben
*Granted, not feasible to buy a classic pair today due to stratospheric prices.
Are these transformers suitable for ESLs like we used to think? Or do they have various shortcomings?*
Ben
*Granted, not feasible to buy a classic pair today due to stratospheric prices.
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In my opinion serious shortcomings. Step-up is (to)low and not made to drive capacitive loads, probebly the frequency respons is not so good.
I certainly make no claim to understanding these things but...
Ratio for my Thordarsons is (1) 10-kohm on one side to (2) the tiny winding between say the 4- and 8-ohm taps on the other side... what is that ratio?
As far as frequency response, they sure cover the range when used as output transformers and have a substantial amount of iron in 'em.
And they sure were used a lot in the old days and looked vastly beefier than what you'd ever find in store-bought ESL speakers*.
Ben
*Except for Dayton-Wights with 39-lb transformers
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In terms of overload/saturation it makes no difference if you have a 10, 100 or 1000W transformer.
For the best solution you need to look at the frequency response of the combination you want, for each phase (See also the plot from the Sowter i uploaded before). You can do that for an unloaded transformer and a capacitive load.
Secondly you need an impedance plot on a double logorithmic scale so you can see wich impedance is the most friendly for you amplifier.
Secondly you need an impedance plot on a double logorithmic scale so you can see wich impedance is the most friendly for you amplifier.
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If 10k to 4-ohms if 50:1
and 10k to 8 is 35:1
is 10k to 4-8 taps 67:1?
Aside from the basic turns ratio, what about other aspects of these audio output transformers that make them suitable or unsuitable?
I'm sure I'm not the only person with old tube output transformers - both fancy and plain - in their parts box or know where to buy two.
Ben
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You can use a doorbel transformer as well. All these transformers will work for an esl only they sound a bit different and your amplifier has to work harder.
Yes Ben, the ratio of your transformers is 1:50 for the 4 ohm tap and 1:35.35 for the 8 ohm tap.
The difference between the 4ohm tap and the 8ohm tap is still only 4ohm, So the ratio if you used both of these terminals would still only be 1:50.
The Transformers self capacitance (along with the Panel capacitance) and leak inductance will mostly determine the high frequency response.
Those devices that have a lot of iron do so because they are designed to go very low to the 20Hz to 40Hz at the least.
As stated a bell transformer would work as well providing that it can handle the voltages produced without arcing over on the inside and shorting out.
Although you would have to use quite a few of them depending on their turns Ratio.
Since they are designed for 60Hz the same rules apply as using Power Toroid transformers, and, should be used at frequency's above 300Hz/360Hz if you are using a rather large amplifier capable of 50Vrms to 60Vrms.
jer
The difference between the 4ohm tap and the 8ohm tap is still only 4ohm, So the ratio if you used both of these terminals would still only be 1:50.
The Transformers self capacitance (along with the Panel capacitance) and leak inductance will mostly determine the high frequency response.
Those devices that have a lot of iron do so because they are designed to go very low to the 20Hz to 40Hz at the least.
As stated a bell transformer would work as well providing that it can handle the voltages produced without arcing over on the inside and shorting out.
Although you would have to use quite a few of them depending on their turns Ratio.
Since they are designed for 60Hz the same rules apply as using Power Toroid transformers, and, should be used at frequency's above 300Hz/360Hz if you are using a rather large amplifier capable of 50Vrms to 60Vrms.
jer
Good point as I got to thinking about that.
I need to take another look at the math as doubling the 4 ohm LV turns brings the winding to 16 ohms not 8 ohms.
Sorry for the confusion.
However, It will be the LV winding that has a different selection of turns, not the HV winding, it stays constant at say 5000 turns for this example.
And if the 4ohm tap equals 100 turns on the LV winding then the 8 ohm winding will be Square root of 2 more the amount of turns at 141 turns for the 8 ohm tap.
This is 41.42 turns difference between the two taps and comes out to be 5000/41.42= 120.71 turns ratio or 1:120.71 using the section of the between the two taps.
Therefore the impedance of the Section of the LV winding between the 4 and 8 ohm taps is quite low at 10,000ohms for the HV winding divided by the turns ratio squared or 10000/ (120.71^2) at .686299 ohms.
This will be the reflected impedance, if the panels impedance is actually 10,000 ohms at 20Khz including the transformers stray capacitance of about 800pf total.
Typically that section of the winding uses the same gauge of wire as used for the whole winding therefore is prone to burn up due to the increased current flowing through it.
I think I got that right?!!!!
jer
I need to take another look at the math as doubling the 4 ohm LV turns brings the winding to 16 ohms not 8 ohms.
Sorry for the confusion.
However, It will be the LV winding that has a different selection of turns, not the HV winding, it stays constant at say 5000 turns for this example.
And if the 4ohm tap equals 100 turns on the LV winding then the 8 ohm winding will be Square root of 2 more the amount of turns at 141 turns for the 8 ohm tap.
This is 41.42 turns difference between the two taps and comes out to be 5000/41.42= 120.71 turns ratio or 1:120.71 using the section of the between the two taps.
Therefore the impedance of the Section of the LV winding between the 4 and 8 ohm taps is quite low at 10,000ohms for the HV winding divided by the turns ratio squared or 10000/ (120.71^2) at .686299 ohms.
This will be the reflected impedance, if the panels impedance is actually 10,000 ohms at 20Khz including the transformers stray capacitance of about 800pf total.
Typically that section of the winding uses the same gauge of wire as used for the whole winding therefore is prone to burn up due to the increased current flowing through it.
I think I got that right?!!!!
jer
If you use the 4-8 Ohm taps you still have secondair the same windings, still a 10k Ohm output. Nothing really changed exept that the new input can have less input voltage.
For an experiment it will work, just as the bell transformer.
The best solution is always a real esl transformer but it will cost some more.
For an experiment it will work, just as the bell transformer.
The best solution is always a real esl transformer but it will cost some more.
I have been waiting for some time for Antek to stock more AN-0506 toroids. After they changed their website i no longer saw the AN-0506 as an option. I contacted them and found out they have discontinued the AN-0506 and no longer will selling them.
They offered me the AS-0506 which is the shielded toroid with the extra wire.
I have decided to purchase the AN-0206 toroids. From my understanding, i don't think anyone has used 4 stacked AN-0206 toroids from Antek. I should receive them shortly, so I am going to do some general testing on them.
If there is any specific info that any of you might like, let me know and i will do my best to provide you with it.
I should be done building the new stators in 4-5 weeks. So I should be able to test how well the toroids perform then.
They offered me the AS-0506 which is the shielded toroid with the extra wire.
I have decided to purchase the AN-0206 toroids. From my understanding, i don't think anyone has used 4 stacked AN-0206 toroids from Antek. I should receive them shortly, so I am going to do some general testing on them.
If there is any specific info that any of you might like, let me know and i will do my best to provide you with it.
I should be done building the new stators in 4-5 weeks. So I should be able to test how well the toroids perform then.
You should get decent performance out of them using 4 per panel with each ones individual pair of 6v winding's and 120v winding's in parallel.
Using 4 cores wired for 1:80.
At $11 a piece this is cost effective vs Performance.
Keep us posted on your finding's.
jer
P.S. They really did a terrible job of hacking up their website!!!!
Using 4 cores wired for 1:80.
At $11 a piece this is cost effective vs Performance.
Keep us posted on your finding's.
jer
P.S. They really did a terrible job of hacking up their website!!!!
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