I'm seeking opinions on going with Mogami 3082 coax speaker cables for my hybrid ESL's.
I've read Roger Sanders' cable white paper and I also read this review of the Sanders cables, wherein, it says they use Mogami #3082 coax cable:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...Speaker-Cable-
Mogami's spec sheet for 3082 cable (see below) states its capacitance is 77pf per foot, which may be low relative to its inductance, but is still higher than other [non-woven] cables I've read about.
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/
Unfortunately, I'm a complete dummy concerning all things electronic, including the effects of inductance and capacitance on loading an amp and on the resulting sound of the speaker.
Asking for advice now is a bit like closing the barn door after the horse is out, since I had already ordered some Mogami 3082 cable and connectors to build a pair of 10ft cables. But that was before I found the spec sheet and noted the higher capacitance. And I'm also assuming the review I read is correct regarding the Sanders cables using the Mogami wire. It would ease my mind if I could be sure that accepting the higher capacitance for lower inductance is in fact a good and wise trade.
Any thoughts on that?
I've read Roger Sanders' cable white paper and I also read this review of the Sanders cables, wherein, it says they use Mogami #3082 coax cable:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...Speaker-Cable-
Mogami's spec sheet for 3082 cable (see below) states its capacitance is 77pf per foot, which may be low relative to its inductance, but is still higher than other [non-woven] cables I've read about.
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/
Unfortunately, I'm a complete dummy concerning all things electronic, including the effects of inductance and capacitance on loading an amp and on the resulting sound of the speaker.
Asking for advice now is a bit like closing the barn door after the horse is out, since I had already ordered some Mogami 3082 cable and connectors to build a pair of 10ft cables. But that was before I found the spec sheet and noted the higher capacitance. And I'm also assuming the review I read is correct regarding the Sanders cables using the Mogami wire. It would ease my mind if I could be sure that accepting the higher capacitance for lower inductance is in fact a good and wise trade.
Any thoughts on that?
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your link to the other forum does not work.
I do not think coax is a good choice for speaker cables.
Others may feel otherwise.
Not sure what Roger Sanders is saying, but he is driving ESLs, that changes the equation somewhat I expect.
In general I have not liked the way higher capacitance speaker cables sound, but there can always be exceptions and new experiences.
I do not think coax is a good choice for speaker cables.
Others may feel otherwise.
Not sure what Roger Sanders is saying, but he is driving ESLs, that changes the equation somewhat I expect.
In general I have not liked the way higher capacitance speaker cables sound, but there can always be exceptions and new experiences.
I should have clarified: The Sanders white paper I referenced applies specifically to driving ESL speakers.
I read some stuff online about cables (so I'm regurgitating here) but you want low inductance low capacitance, otherwise some amps can go hay-wire, especially when it comes to capacitance values. 77 pf per foot is higher than regular zip cord, but some speaker wire can be over 100 pf/foot in order to have lower inductance. I couldn't view the links, but coax cable, due to its design, is prone to higher capacitance. I made myself some litz-like cable out of the wire from some cat-5 cable. Litz cable is good when it comes to low capacitance (given + and - aren't twisted or woven together), relatively low inductance, and low resistance.
Here's the review that wouldn't open in my first post:
AudiogoN Reviews: Sanders Sound Systems ESL Speaker Cable Speaker cable
Mogami spec sheet:
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/
AudiogoN Reviews: Sanders Sound Systems ESL Speaker Cable Speaker cable
Mogami spec sheet:
http://www.mogamicable.com/category/bulk/speaker_cable/pure_sound/
I still cant get the Mogami link to open.
What it boils down to is this: having multiple conductor cable, with each conductor individually insulated, having the positive and negative conductors highly coupled (by being closer together) leads to more effective cancelation of the magnetic fields that each create, and thus lower inductance. But since they are closer together, the capacitance between the cables is higher. The difference in sound that you get with different cables is usually pathetically small (especially compared to the price of high end cables), though any difference is usually more of an effect the capacitance/inductance of the cable has on the load that the amp is driving. Some amps can be very sensitive to increases in capacitance in the load, some inductance.
That being said, the cable does have an effect on the signal itself, though minor. Skin effect comes into play at high frequencies, and Maxwell effect at low. So you want a big enough single conductor (24-26 gauge) to counteract skin effect, but no thicker because then Maxwell effect comes into play with thick conductors. But one thin conductor has high resistance, so multiple in parallel are used to lower resistance. How those multiple in parallel are arranged is where inductance and capacitance come in.
Coax cable leads to very low inductance, though the arrangement of the conductors (I assume one of them is a shield around the others since I can't view the link) leads to higher capacitance. It's a game of compromise and some experimentation. That being said, the review of the Magomi cable sounds pretty positive.
What it boils down to is this: having multiple conductor cable, with each conductor individually insulated, having the positive and negative conductors highly coupled (by being closer together) leads to more effective cancelation of the magnetic fields that each create, and thus lower inductance. But since they are closer together, the capacitance between the cables is higher. The difference in sound that you get with different cables is usually pathetically small (especially compared to the price of high end cables), though any difference is usually more of an effect the capacitance/inductance of the cable has on the load that the amp is driving. Some amps can be very sensitive to increases in capacitance in the load, some inductance.
That being said, the cable does have an effect on the signal itself, though minor. Skin effect comes into play at high frequencies, and Maxwell effect at low. So you want a big enough single conductor (24-26 gauge) to counteract skin effect, but no thicker because then Maxwell effect comes into play with thick conductors. But one thin conductor has high resistance, so multiple in parallel are used to lower resistance. How those multiple in parallel are arranged is where inductance and capacitance come in.
Coax cable leads to very low inductance, though the arrangement of the conductors (I assume one of them is a shield around the others since I can't view the link) leads to higher capacitance. It's a game of compromise and some experimentation. That being said, the review of the Magomi cable sounds pretty positive.
Thanks Dumbledog,
I can no longer pull up the Mogami website at all so it must be down this evening. As I recall, capacitance is 77pf/ft and inductance 0.12H/ft. The cable is advertised as flexible with a stranded rather than solid center conductor. Both conductors are oxygen free copper and both 14 gauge, with PVC insulation filling the space between the center and outer conductors. I gathered from the Sanders website that the outer conductor is not woven and its strands are spiral wrapped opposite to the twist of the center conductor strands, to better cancel inductance.
Thanks again for your reply.
I can no longer pull up the Mogami website at all so it must be down this evening. As I recall, capacitance is 77pf/ft and inductance 0.12H/ft. The cable is advertised as flexible with a stranded rather than solid center conductor. Both conductors are oxygen free copper and both 14 gauge, with PVC insulation filling the space between the center and outer conductors. I gathered from the Sanders website that the outer conductor is not woven and its strands are spiral wrapped opposite to the twist of the center conductor strands, to better cancel inductance.
Thanks again for your reply.
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Ahh... So is the Mogami cable you are talking about instrument cable? Intended for stuff like electric guitar cables and such? If that's the case then it would be interesting to see how it works. Those usually contain high quality wire, though the center conductor is still not like litz cable with each strand being insulated. Think of it more like standard zip cord with one of the wire's conductors wrapped around the insulation of the other wire.
It's advertised as "speaker cable". Here's a link that should open:
http://www.performanceaudio.com/media/pdf/137/5636_s.pdf
http://www.performanceaudio.com/media/pdf/137/5636_s.pdf
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I've had good experiences with coaxial cables, although it depends greatly on the speaker impedance (no surprise there) and whether you're downtown or in the suburbs. Why? City centres are a mess of electromagnetic interference, which twin-lead can carry back to the amplifier and then to the negative feedback point.
If cable is the problem, mount the amp at the speaker and use almost none. If you're worried about the low level signal you could either use balanced line or use properly terminated coax transmission line.
G²
Are you talking about using the cable to feed the panel on the stepped up side or feeding the transformer between the primary winding and the amplifier?
jer
I was referring to using coax speaker cable between my amp and ESL step-up transformer(s); specifically, Mogami 3082 coax cable, which I believe is the same cable used in the ESL-specific speaker cables sold by Roger Sanders (although I'm not positive about that).
BTW, how's it coming with testing that 1206 tranny?
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Okay,Thanks Charlie.
I think that it is novel idea to use Coax for speaker cable.
Although it seems to be beneficial, I don't think that one would see any gain in the extra cost unless it was for a very long run.
We once got some $4 per foot Monster cable for a 6' run to use on the Apogee Duette's and I couldn't hear the difference.
It was some fancy made stuff with heavy gauge and twisted pairs all in one cable 99.99% pure oxygen free copper!!! Ahhhh,ha,ha,ha,ha
I did have an instance once were an amp became unstable when I used some 12 ga House wire for speaker cable for a rather long run of about 20 feet.
It was my BGW amp and not having a the third wire connect in a certain configuration acted like an antenna of some sort and caused to chirp and squeal everytime the cable was touch or moved just right.
I had a chart that showed the attenuation of the 12 GA house wire to be less than 1db to .5db right at 20Khz.
It was in a issue of Popular Electronics magazine I had and I found it on the web once.
They were also comparing some standard zip lead as well to the expensive Monster stuff that was out at the time.
I had thought about using Coax for short runs to feed the panels before, for the shielding of the HV.
But the added capacitance is of concern although there is some that has a much lower capacitance as mentioned.
Some heavy duty twin lead would be better than speaker wire as the larger the distance between the two conductors the lower the parasitic capacitance of the cable and would provide a equally balanced load along its length.
Again this would only be of concern at RF frequency's.
The Mogami cable has some great cable however it is very costly from what I remember from my days of messin' with RF transmission and it has one of the lowest attenuation factors for runs of greater than 100'.
But it is only beneficial at 30Mhz and above.
Here are some examples of different cable types,
50 Ohm Braided Coax Cable, RG58 Cable | TESSCO 800 472 7373
50 Ohm Braided Coax Cable, RG142, RG174, RG214 Cable | TESSCO 800 472 7373
http://www.timesmicrowave.com/downloads/products/broadband.pdf
Here is the Mogami Data
Mogami W3082
Twin lead, Ladder, Balance line or what ever you want to call it has the lowest attenuation factor of any of the cable assembly type and can be run at any length without impedance mismatch for any frequency.
Being that it is balanced it is immune to any outside noise issues just the same as a twisted pair line.
I have considered using some shielded twin lead (Twinax) before but again it is costly and it was difficult to find some with a really low capacitance per foot.
After all of that I can't say that it won't make a difference but it surly does on the input low level side of things.
I have tried several different types of cable for long runs of only 20' to 30' and some sounded very much better than others and this was affirmed to those types with a lower capacitance per foot were the best.
I was using my guitar on a very high power amp system set on clean and you could instantly notice the better highs coming from my Strat using the lower capacitance cable used to wire my studio.
It was West Penn #291 and I have used it for everything from audio to RF and Video with no issues or degradation in the quality the signal.
The only problem I had with using it was the crackling sound it produces when it is moved around or stepped on.
This is caused from the Piezo effect due to its polyethylene jacketing.
This is were good ole' Belden Rubber jacketed cable wins !!
Charlie, I will be getting on the transformer data within the next week,Sorry for the delay.
I had got a new computer for Christmas and I had been getting it situated and my bench was cluttered up with it.
And now that it is pretty much done I can continue on with my ESL projects.
I am planning on a newer and more thorough easier to follow article on the testing of transformers as during the last one I was still learning my self and got a bit confusing.
I will be including a much more in depth look at the transformer than just finding its Capacitance and such.
One of the things I have to do is make some resistor dividers For x10,x100 and x1000 so that I can get some accurate voltage measurements.
Or least, more consistent ones because my DVM is slightly off when it is switched between ranges.
I discovered this when I was finishing up my HV supply design.
I did this the last time I measured my transformer and got much better and consistent results and was able to quickly measure several of my cores for consistency between them.
I will document this process in my style of full details !!
I plan on getting some THD measurements as well with a x1000 or even a x10,000 divider using my computer.
Cheers !!!
jer
I think that it is novel idea to use Coax for speaker cable.
Although it seems to be beneficial, I don't think that one would see any gain in the extra cost unless it was for a very long run.
We once got some $4 per foot Monster cable for a 6' run to use on the Apogee Duette's and I couldn't hear the difference.
It was some fancy made stuff with heavy gauge and twisted pairs all in one cable 99.99% pure oxygen free copper!!! Ahhhh,ha,ha,ha,ha
I did have an instance once were an amp became unstable when I used some 12 ga House wire for speaker cable for a rather long run of about 20 feet.
It was my BGW amp and not having a the third wire connect in a certain configuration acted like an antenna of some sort and caused to chirp and squeal everytime the cable was touch or moved just right.
I had a chart that showed the attenuation of the 12 GA house wire to be less than 1db to .5db right at 20Khz.
It was in a issue of Popular Electronics magazine I had and I found it on the web once.
They were also comparing some standard zip lead as well to the expensive Monster stuff that was out at the time.
I had thought about using Coax for short runs to feed the panels before, for the shielding of the HV.
But the added capacitance is of concern although there is some that has a much lower capacitance as mentioned.
Some heavy duty twin lead would be better than speaker wire as the larger the distance between the two conductors the lower the parasitic capacitance of the cable and would provide a equally balanced load along its length.
Again this would only be of concern at RF frequency's.
The Mogami cable has some great cable however it is very costly from what I remember from my days of messin' with RF transmission and it has one of the lowest attenuation factors for runs of greater than 100'.
But it is only beneficial at 30Mhz and above.
Here are some examples of different cable types,
50 Ohm Braided Coax Cable, RG58 Cable | TESSCO 800 472 7373
50 Ohm Braided Coax Cable, RG142, RG174, RG214 Cable | TESSCO 800 472 7373
http://www.timesmicrowave.com/downloads/products/broadband.pdf
Here is the Mogami Data
Mogami W3082
Twin lead, Ladder, Balance line or what ever you want to call it has the lowest attenuation factor of any of the cable assembly type and can be run at any length without impedance mismatch for any frequency.
Being that it is balanced it is immune to any outside noise issues just the same as a twisted pair line.
I have considered using some shielded twin lead (Twinax) before but again it is costly and it was difficult to find some with a really low capacitance per foot.
After all of that I can't say that it won't make a difference but it surly does on the input low level side of things.
I have tried several different types of cable for long runs of only 20' to 30' and some sounded very much better than others and this was affirmed to those types with a lower capacitance per foot were the best.
I was using my guitar on a very high power amp system set on clean and you could instantly notice the better highs coming from my Strat using the lower capacitance cable used to wire my studio.
It was West Penn #291 and I have used it for everything from audio to RF and Video with no issues or degradation in the quality the signal.
The only problem I had with using it was the crackling sound it produces when it is moved around or stepped on.
This is caused from the Piezo effect due to its polyethylene jacketing.
This is were good ole' Belden Rubber jacketed cable wins !!
Charlie, I will be getting on the transformer data within the next week,Sorry for the delay.
I had got a new computer for Christmas and I had been getting it situated and my bench was cluttered up with it.
And now that it is pretty much done I can continue on with my ESL projects.
I am planning on a newer and more thorough easier to follow article on the testing of transformers as during the last one I was still learning my self and got a bit confusing.
I will be including a much more in depth look at the transformer than just finding its Capacitance and such.
One of the things I have to do is make some resistor dividers For x10,x100 and x1000 so that I can get some accurate voltage measurements.
Or least, more consistent ones because my DVM is slightly off when it is switched between ranges.
I discovered this when I was finishing up my HV supply design.
I did this the last time I measured my transformer and got much better and consistent results and was able to quickly measure several of my cores for consistency between them.
I will document this process in my style of full details !!
I plan on getting some THD measurements as well with a x1000 or even a x10,000 divider using my computer.
Cheers !!!
jer
I just finished a pair of 10ft Mogami 3082 cables and heard them for the first time a few minutes ago. Nothing profound to report at this time-- I am withholding judgement on their sound until I've had time to listen to them at length-- at least they didn't blow up my amps right off the bat. This week will be rather busy so it may take me a while to evaluate.
The build photos are here
The build photos are here
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Many esl have horrible capacitive loads for an amplifier, why add extra capacity if it's not needed?
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