ALL tweeter size drivers are inherently high in distortion below a certain point...
Don't mistake typical headphone drive levels versus loudspeaker drive levels. How do you think a typical headphone driver would measure for THD at say 90dBSPL at a foot? Not pretty at all. Let's go in reverse now and use a driver capable of being used in speaker system. It's now on virtual cruise control when used as a headphone driver. All just hypothetical of course, BUT may hold water in this case.
Greg
I'm sorry, I should have clarified what I was saying. I'm making a linear assumption. If a ribbon driver's distortion starts shooting through the roof at around 1khz at "normal" listening levels compared to other high quality designs, what is going to happen at 20 hz or even 100 hz at normal headphone listening levels? I think a ribbon driver is going to have much higher distortion at those levels and frequencies simply because of the extremely steep distortion trend they exhibit at around 1 khz at normal levels. An assumption.. And of course it could be wrong. Only time will tell..
Hey, I've got an idea, run one of your ribbons full range and play a 20 hz signal through it at headphone listening levels with your ear almost right up to it. If it sounds clean..
Hey, I've got an idea, run one of your ribbons full range and play a 20 hz signal through it at headphone listening levels with your ear almost right up to it. If it sounds clean..
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http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/standard.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
I do think that "rough" conclusions can be drawn from these measurements.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/nondomes/standard.html
http://www.zaphaudio.com/tweetermishmash/compare.html
I do think that "rough" conclusions can be drawn from these measurements.
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Nothing personal, but those links are too old.
Again, as I've just said, even many people who didn't like true ribbon tweeters at first, have started to appreciate the raal oem tweeter.
It works in a "secret" way (one must sign an nda contract before buying it), that allows it to be flat in frequency response (while for instance my fountek neo cd3.0 is a little bright above 14khz), and very low distortion, even at lower frequencies. That is, it can be crossed at 1.8khz with just one capacitator
.To put it in a nutshell, the raal oem tweeter doesn't have anything to do with those links. And I hope that these headphones are strongly based on that tweeter. Again, I'm still NOT 100% sure about these headphones, at least until some measurement is published.
This is the only data sheet I could find on that particular RAAL..
RAAL_70-10XR Ribbon Tweeter
Too bad there's no distortion plots.
It says 10xr here, but it is 20xr on the datasheet..
RAAL_70-10XR Ribbon Tweeter
Too bad there's no distortion plots.
It says 10xr here, but it is 20xr on the datasheet..
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Lol!! How could you find it? I was never able to find anything specific, as it is under nda. Will read it later.
The graph kind of looks like a dipole Neo 3, but with less extension..
http://www.stonessoundstudio.com.au/stone/Raal/raal_7020XR_ribbon_tweeter.htm
http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48325/Neo3pdr.gif
Why would anyone want to hide measurements if they're good? Great measurements are great for business. Am I Right? Measurements won't give away any technological secrets. So why not post them? C'mon Alexander, post the measurements..SHEESH!
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There is a great difference between true ribbon and planar (or non true ribbon). Here is it explained: Transmission Audio Inc.
Even if it's not always measurable, I believe the true ribbon to be more neutral and detailed. In addition, the true ribbon can have the resonance frequency below 20hz, and that's why it SHOULD (again we need to wait for these headphones) be better than planar headphones (like the audeze lcd-2).
I prefer this one. A bit more objective..
Understanding Tweeter Technology - CE Pro Spotlight Article from CE Pro
Understanding Tweeter Technology - CE Pro Spotlight Article from CE Pro
A bit....
Still not a great idea for a publication to get basically "the planar guy" to do the article. Doesn't pass the smell test if you catch my drift.
Just playing devils advocate, because obviously, I love his work.
Greg
Thx, I will read it as soon as I have time
.Nevertheless, I have to admit that I've desperately fallen in love with TRUE ribbon tweeters
, and I only have a "cheap" true ribbon tweeter (fountek neocd 3.0). I wonder how subjective I am myself, but even when I go to hi-fi shows, the speakers that impress me the most are true ribbon ones .Edit: didn't want to read everything in the end
. What I can say, is that though true ribbon tweeters are fragile, raal ribbon (in particular the OEM version) is absolutely not, but it can compete with some of the best 1'' dome from this point of view too. My fountek for instance is crossed at 3.2k with a 3d order .
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Thx, I will read it as soon as I have time
Nevertheless, I have to admit that I've desperately fallen in love with TRUE ribbon tweeters
Edit: didn't want to read everything in the end
Not only are a lot of true ribbons beautiful sounding, But most are also beautiful looking. Ribbons are easily the most 'high end' looking of any driver.
Unlike a good ribbon though, a good dome can easily do 1.5khz with a 3rd order, and a Neo 3 can do it with a 4th..
Planars do have indeed tremendous resistance and power capabilities. The raal ribbons will work up to 200mw on average (according to the white paper). The audeze lcd-2 (planar) can sustain 15w, for at least 130db sustained .
Nevertheless, the audeze lcd-2's dynamics seemed compressed, just like it is explained on the raal headphones white paper.
.Nevertheless, the audeze lcd-2's dynamics seemed compressed, just like it is explained on the raal headphones white paper.
Having too much bass in a planar headphone is usually an alright place to be, no? If you didn't believe in damping, couldn't you try A) Venting the pleather pads you currently have if they aren't vented already, B) Use velour pads instead, and/or C) Add reflex segments to the back magnet structures such as what's seen on the EAH-820?
Cool project, btw.
Cool project, btw.
No matter what I tried(And believe me, I tried) I couldn't get the 3khz range up to where it needed to be(Very dull sounding), in order to compensate for the HRTF. It could be that it was the PDR that was causing the problem. The regular Neo 3 just might work, but it would still be too heavy for normal headphone use..
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Here is the Audeze LCD3. the bottom (gray) curve is how a good planar headphone should measure, in order to sound like the (perceived, colored)top curve. The actual measured response of the Neo 3 headphones looks more similar to the top curve. Not a good thing.
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3Rev2sn2613375circa2012.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudezeLCD3Rev2sn2613375circa2012.pdf
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What an interesting thread!
I have a pair of Neo3 PRDW's which were at the time of reading this thread just lying around. So, I popped the back off, pressed them against my ears and was very impressed with the sound... After some playing. As it has already been pointed out, positioning matters immensely. I found if I squeezed them against my head as tightly as my ears would allow, they would produce relativity deep bass response. Beyond that, various levels of pressure/distance from my ears as well as vertical and horizontal placement would produce surprisingly different results with minimal variations. I've ordered a pair of the monoprice headphones aforementioned. I look forward to further experimenting!
I have a pair of Neo3 PRDW's which were at the time of reading this thread just lying around. So, I popped the back off, pressed them against my ears and was very impressed with the sound... After some playing. As it has already been pointed out, positioning matters immensely. I found if I squeezed them against my head as tightly as my ears would allow, they would produce relativity deep bass response. Beyond that, various levels of pressure/distance from my ears as well as vertical and horizontal placement would produce surprisingly different results with minimal variations. I've ordered a pair of the monoprice headphones aforementioned. I look forward to further experimenting!
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