Electrostatic Speaker Help/Trouble

Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.
Dawn dishwashing soap $1.US well do 20panels ezey ...work like other have said....the soap work ever time...but a smll leak in the front or back of the panel well pull output down... just like your saying ....now finding it....have fun..youll get there it well worth the work... i have soap on a 10k pr of MartinLogans here now sound bettert than ever..
 
I have panels here that have been working for months with soap..Go fig...an yes i say all Diy ESL made to take apart... no matter what coating used on your ESLs well not be at full output...6 months dust well bild.....it your panel... [There are better coatings]....but others just can say whats the best is??? have fun ESL are the best...for me anyway
 
Last edited:
Hello Jer, in your post there of 2011 you suggest to use Alcool, Denatured or Isoprophilic.
Do you still cofirm these two cleaning products for my Martin Logan ES panel?

Be aware that I cannot completely dismount the ES panel, I can just remove them out the wood frame... so I will have to wash the milar film through the front and back stator grids, so I can just let the Alcool and water flow through.

Is it OK?

Many thanks
Kind regards
Andrea
 
If you must use a solvent due to cigarette smoke and grime then yes an alcohol would be your best bet.

However I have no experience with the ML panels so I cannot confirm this directly.

Knowing what little I do know about their coatings I don't think that it will harm them.
They do use a some sort of graphite slurry as well and how well it sticks to the mylar is questionable as well.
Or if an alcohol would effect its glue base if any is used.

Your best bet is vacuuming and/or blowing them off with low pressured compressed air first.

Then if you must, spray them off with some water.

Being that the mylar is still mounted in the stators you shouldn't have any issues with damaging it by over stretching as it is pretty tough stuff and that their movement is limited by and supported by the stators.

As in that thread one supports just suggests putting them the shower.
Else where I had read of one spraying them by using a garden hose.

The coating that I use is pretty immune to solvents so I have not had any issues with it so far.

This is the best info I have and maybe a few others will chime in with their experiences with washing their panels as well.

Good luck !!

jer :)
 
Last edited:
Dear Jer (and other Followers of this thread),

Friday I came back from my vacation and yesterday early morning I immediately washed my old Sequel II panels.

These panels are operating since 1996 and only dry-cleaned once a year with a vacuum (both sides).

I first gave a visual inspection to the mylar by using a negative film magnifier. I immediately detected some kind of dust and other "black" powder, like carbon particles (nobody smokes in my family, so it cannot be smoke, but it could air pollution).

The power was off since 3 weeks, so I could promplty dismount all and go to my washing machine: my "shower" + denatured alcohol + soft large brush.

After 1h I got everything perfectly cleaned (me included) and a bit drunk ... due to alcohol vapours...

No problems to dry the panels... outside there were over 40 °C (105 °F), so I put those on the balcony. After 8h were almost perfectly dry, anyway I preferred to let them completely dry-up in-house during the night.

This morning I visually inspected again the mylar, and I found it clean, so I remounted all and tested the new "washed" sound.

Well, my acoustic impression is that the washed panels sound better than before... but then I went to measure the responses... I had a surprise:
sequel2 es panel response before and after washing 20120804.png
Lug 14 are the graphs 1 & 2 BEFORE washing (since 1996 when installed)
Ago 4 (today) are the graphs 3 & 4 AFTER washing (washed yesterday)
Don't care the off-set between the 2 measure set, I just used different levels to split the graphs.
Instead, what is to be noted is that the right ES panel, once washed is sounding 3 dB lower the left... I will investigate it by tomorrow.

At the time I am writing this post, I am still listening to the new "washed" sound and it seams better, more realistic and brighter ... even if from the measurements it should be the same of before.

Anybody can help me about?
Is it just my "imagination" that wrongly let me hear better?

Thanks and regards,
Andrea
 
Last edited:
Hi,

washing a panel should rather be the last try before refurbishing.
There might be a couple of reasons for the drop in SPL.
- the washing may have created new leakage paths, so that the diaphragm is not charged up to the fullest.
- the washing action cleaned off the conductive liquid ML puts on in addition to the ITO coating of the film.

The measurements really look strange. I assume You measured the panel without crossover, just connected to audio tranny and HV-supply at a certain distance of >=1m? The drop of SPL above 4kHz would worry me more than anything else.
Unfortunately I seem to have lost my measurements of the Sequel2 in a HDD crash, but I think I remember that the panel reached about 12kHz (due to the Sequel´s really crappy cheap audio tranny) but was good for >20kHz with a decent tranny. As typical for basically all panels of this building the lower Fs peaked massively around 200-250Hz, followed by a dip (due to acoustic phase cancellation in the far field) and a small broad peak between 1-4kHz and a nearly constant slight drop off til the upper bandwidth limit (not the -6dB/oct as in the plot).

jauu
Calvin
 
If you get the panels apart.....theres a lot of ...what ever... on them.....but thay CAN come back better than ever....
Run new Bias feeds on left an right sides of the panels...Well get 2-3db more output over new ML panels that are over $1K US now....

I do like MY ML...Have 4 pr here now .. SL3, Ascent, Prodigy, an CLS zII...An there have 10pr here from time to time....But i could never tell any one to buy there speakes....Less thay sale them in a year or two...
It a HARD sale when your panel dies or The bias feed Red wire just Falls out... an it take a $1k just to make them work + you got find some one to pay to put the new panels in....When these big things are just seting in the nom..home...an not work right.....After a year people well take just about anything to see them Go.....i have two pr i got here now...$100. for pr......After re-working the panels thay sound great... 4hr maybe to get them going.....Look how clean thay can get....I set all my ML panels up so i can take them a part an clean about every 6-8 weeks........goodluck
 

Attachments

  • 2008_0716self_pics0319_small[1].JPG
    2008_0716self_pics0319_small[1].JPG
    66.2 KB · Views: 220
  • 2008_0716self_pics0321_small[1].JPG
    2008_0716self_pics0321_small[1].JPG
    125 KB · Views: 216
Last edited:
Hello Friends,

I key detail I missed in my previous post is that my ES panels had a 3+ dB improved sensitivity after washing (you cannot see this by my previous posted graphs).


So, the dirty layered on the mylar over 15 years of work had really impacted, if not the frequency response, the output sound level at least.

Also the "side" issue of the right panel playing 3dB lower the left is gone away with a cable check and re-soldered terminals (probably it was due to a not perfect electric contact on the high-voltage bias

Regards, Andrea
 
Just take your time.....It can be done....
All ML panels but the CLs are only held at the top an bottem..... i have ripet one or two of the old SL3 panels....but these panels were not woring so nothing to lose...the top bar of mylar rips...an the bottem bar rips....so i just cut the lose Mylar out..... still playing an are on now...even ripet thay have better output than the stock new panels...With there bias feeds only on the right side.....i run the bias feeds up left an right side...
But from 2000 on up... the ML panels.... Ascent,i on up in the line.... just pop right open....i just pop a pr of the Prodigy panels open...not one rip...an What a diff. in SPL..
.All the ML panels out there that Know one well ever hear there full output.....I hear some say the base dose not match the panels.....if you tune the panels ON the way thay should be....there as good if not better than full rang ESl....Thay have a lot more Spl than any full rang i have had....goodluck
 
Member
Joined 2005
Paid Member
I have a pair of original CLS's I will eventually attempt to open. As tyu says - very carefully. They both work fine, just that one panel has a few ripples in lower midle of panel where the mylar may have worked loose fom frame - not a rip or tear. I also want to clean off the panels, new strip of bias wire all around the diaphragm, and put new coating.

What glue is used to connect mylar to the stator frame?
 
A type of 3m wide tape....
I always set the panels up to be re-opened...ones you hear the diff it makes just to clean...mustless run new feeds an recoate...you wont ..wount to lose that SPL ever again...
I go back in every 6-8weeks.....I went back in to the panels in 5 days an there is gunk on them alredy...go figg but it all good....Sweet, Big, Full sound....I am in fl. ...wet an hum here.....
I have a pr of the CLs here also...but i have not even tryed to open....as you can see there held togather All the way a round...if you try...wate till it Cold..not wet ..dry cold...i have seen a pr opened.... but the guy put new mylar in...not for me..
I have the Acoustats...an a lot of others ESL... an i have never heard even a NEw pr of CLs sound better...Than my Acoustats with the NEw 121 interface mods.....goodluck
 
Member
Joined 2005
Paid Member
Yup, but I still slightly prefer the sound of my CLS IIa panels in the mids - high frequency over the Model 3's. The Model 3's have fantastic Bass tho...

I have been running my CLS with homeade interfaces and have been quite happy with them running 150hz and higher, but I have just obtained a pair of Model 1's. I will be testing the CLS with the 141 interfaces (Medallion Trannies) from the model 1 to see if it sounds any better...should be interesting
 
Problem with one channel after ES panel dismount and washing

Hello Friends,

I am sorry (for me and to disturt you), but I have a problem after my washing job of last Saturday.

As I reported in my first update, I immediately detected that one panel was playing 3 to 6 dB lower than the other.
Then in my following post I wrongly said that the problem was over (I simply missmatched the testing levels, so I went to a wrong conclusion).

Yesterday I definitively verified that I HAVE THAT PROBLEM, but I don't know what is the cause.

I mean, because to dismount the ES panels, I also took off the filter+high voltage power supply box, and detached all the cables, it may be the problem to be in the high voltage power supply and not in the washed ES panel.

This is the frequency response I got yesterday:
problem of 6db sensitivity gap 20120807.png
Key details to know:
- The SX/green panel system is playing about 3..4dB louder than before washing, so the washing job went fine on that panel and even listening to it is immediately evident the sound improvement.
- The DX/blue panel system is playing about 2dB lower than before washing, so a total gap of about 6..7 dB (max) between the two is now present. However, listening to it, it sounds "balanced", so I should say that the washing job didn't broken it by sure.

What is strange to me is that the response of the bad panel looks like to have the music sensor of the high-voltage powerr supply detached (I had that problem in the past), however I checked twice the music sensor wiring and it is perfect.

Anybody of you knows how to troubleshoot/check the high-voltage powerr supply?
My unit is the model MLPS 103.

Many thanks in advance for your contributions!
Kind regards, Andrea
 
Calvin... posted

washing a panel should rather be the last try before refurbishing.
There might be a couple of reasons for the drop in SPL.
- the washing may have created new leakage paths, so that the diaphragm is not charged up to the fullest.
- the washing action cleaned off the conductive liquid ML puts on in addition to the ITO coating of the film.

Take the good.... hi output panels high-voltage power supply ....put it on the lower output panel ...see if it comes back..then you know if it the panel are the HVS...I have found the red bias feed wire can fall out of the panel or not make good contack......goodluck
 
Last edited:
Hello Tyu,

I did as you suggested and nothing changed, so, definitively, it is a matter with that panel.

Because the other panel improved 3..4dB after washing, while this one worsen 2dB, now I have the stereo system very unbalanced.

At this point, what do you suggest me?:
a) Wash again this panel tempting to bring it at the same "cleaning" level of the other good.
b) Open it and do what you suggested in post #31?

(Or) anything else in between? (Easier than option b)

About what said Calvin... is it also your opinion?
If I haven't misunderstood your posts and private replies, you too suggest to wash the panel, or have you said just to dry clean it?

Many thanks and regards
Andrea
 
Last edited:
Status
This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.