I'm pretty sure my topic hasn't been discussed as far as I can tell from searching threads. Let me tickle your big brains:
Here's my design problem: I want to use the BG Neo 10 on OB with the AE Dipole 15 or another suitable woofer/s for bi-amp config @ 500hz or less system crossover point.
But the Neo10 is marketed as as midrange. Why? On its plot it goes as far as 13khz and still 90db. Now the Neo 8 goes to 20khz before dropping below 90db. 13khz is plenty good for me. The huge hill in response approaching 8-10 khz is there with all three drivers (Neo 8/Neo8PDR/Neo10) but I see this as a perfect way to get flatter response in the highs off axis.
I don't want to use the Neo 8 because it crosses too high for my taste and I don't have money for a bunch of them. Even if I did, I don't want an add-on tweeter.
So my question is this: is there some other reason BG marketed the Neo10 good for only up to 6khz? Is there some other reason the unit shouldn't be used above that, given that I don't care about the 15-20khz area or 'beaming'? I know the unit is higher excursion than the 8. Is intermodulation distortion the reason? Or is it as simple as not wanting to dampen sales of the Neo8 if the 10 is stated to have all the same capabilities and more?
Here's my design problem: I want to use the BG Neo 10 on OB with the AE Dipole 15 or another suitable woofer/s for bi-amp config @ 500hz or less system crossover point.
But the Neo10 is marketed as as midrange. Why? On its plot it goes as far as 13khz and still 90db. Now the Neo 8 goes to 20khz before dropping below 90db. 13khz is plenty good for me. The huge hill in response approaching 8-10 khz is there with all three drivers (Neo 8/Neo8PDR/Neo10) but I see this as a perfect way to get flatter response in the highs off axis.
I don't want to use the Neo 8 because it crosses too high for my taste and I don't have money for a bunch of them. Even if I did, I don't want an add-on tweeter.
So my question is this: is there some other reason BG marketed the Neo10 good for only up to 6khz? Is there some other reason the unit shouldn't be used above that, given that I don't care about the 15-20khz area or 'beaming'? I know the unit is higher excursion than the 8. Is intermodulation distortion the reason? Or is it as simple as not wanting to dampen sales of the Neo8 if the 10 is stated to have all the same capabilities and more?
Beaming/ directivity would be seen as an issue by many users in the vertical plane particularly. B&G no doubt market it as a midrange because of these technical issues. Horizontal directivity is better because the driver is not as wide as it is tall. I'm sure it'd sound fine run up high, but I expect you will need to be dead on-axis to get hf at full level. There will likely be issues with power response in-room, but it depends on your exact application and how near to the drivers you are. I suppose you could also play with the horizontal angle relative to your ears in conjunction with the EQ for the inherently rising response. I have Neo 10s, and although I don't think I've had the best out of them yet, they are very good. In the end, all you can do is try it out and see what you think. The worst that can happen is that you'll end up needing a tweeter. I'm using it with the Neo 3 crossed over at 2kHz ATM.
The best I've heard them so far is when I took them over to my good friend The Guitarist's place. His system is better sorted than mine ATM and he has a lot of space behind the speakers, which helps. We both thought they sounded cleaner and more transparent to the music than the Audax HM130C0s he usually runs in the midrange. At home there are several issues, particularly room acoustics, that seem to be limiting performance. Those that have done a decent implementation seem very happy with them. Most are using them with the Neo 3, but this thread Raal 140, Neo10, AE Dipole 15 in the works on Audio Circle uses the Raal 140-15, and includes some discussion of the Neo 10 vs cone drivers.
Hey, that`s mine! I would advise against running the neo10 fullrange. There is something going on around 5-6khz that I don't like as well the rising response above there. The measurements I have are all with 2 neo10, so they don't look like BG`s. On mine, the low end is filled in due to the mutual coupling. Plus, the dispersion vertically in the highs will be like a laser beam.
Greg
Zaph measurements
Another thing I brought up with Igor Levitsky was the Neo 10 measurements that were done by Zaph. He was completely unaware of them, and was very impressed with Krutke's measuring technique. After examining the Zaph website( Was also unaware of that), he made the comment that there are very few people, professional or otherwise, that have a grasp on as many of the variables involved with speaker design as that guy does. He was floored when I told him that the website was created for the benefit of the DIY community without any financial gain in mind(The small amount he has made came way after 99% of the website info was completed).
Another thing I brought up with Igor Levitsky was the Neo 10 measurements that were done by Zaph. He was completely unaware of them, and was very impressed with Krutke's measuring technique. After examining the Zaph website( Was also unaware of that), he made the comment that there are very few people, professional or otherwise, that have a grasp on as many of the variables involved with speaker design as that guy does. He was floored when I told him that the website was created for the benefit of the DIY community without any financial gain in mind(The small amount he has made came way after 99% of the website info was completed).
Last edited:
Studiotech, I followed your project with great interest from the very beginning. It's a beautiful speaker from both objective and subjective(looks) standpoints. If I were to build a fully open baffle design, I would definitely follow your lead. There is one thing that I don't quite understand though. It would appear that two vertically spaced Neo 10's with a laterally placed tweeter crossed over at anywhere above 2k would cause severe comb filtering in both the lateral and vertical plane. Do you notice this? Or is it subjectively benign?
My own personal neo 10 measurements run as a full range dipole (11"x15" baffle and taken at 2 meters on axis are very flat to 10k. The in room power response does appear to average out nicely. Listening to them full range by themselves with the just the right amount of toe in could possibly work.
Sure, I've got some issues at the crossover point as I move horizontally. Moving sideways too far causes a nice dip in response, but after playing with slopes, phase and delay, I've got a good spot in the middle. It's the outside edges that go bad, but I have the aide walls heavily treated with rigid fiberglass and acoustic cotton batting from Bonded Logic, so less than perfect power response doesn't bother me as it might in a more reflective, lively room.
Vertical response is somewhat narrow, but I like that. Not combing, but narrow. This can be adjusted by moving the foam pads for the Raal and I may experiment with making some larger ones for the Neo10.
Hope this helps.
Greg
Studiotech, That makes total sense in a dedicated listening room with one listening spot. In my situation(living room), the power response is much more important. Most of the time I'm at the computer(I have a computer based audio system), or laying on the couch reading a book. Sometimes, I even sit in the "dedicated" audiophile approved equilateral listening position. In other words, I need it to sound relatively flat in more than one place.
Using the Neo 10 with a dsp parametric eq, you can set the frequency at 9k, set volume at around minus 8 and set the q at around .5(After that, you can season to taste) This way, you can compensate just the right amount for the rising response issues with minimal processing. It's quasi-anechoic will end up being about 3db up at 9k. Just the right amount to compensate for the drivers inherent rolloff. (If the lack of high frequencies bugs you, you can use a relatively inexpensive tweeter above that point).
As an adjunct to the previous message, The dipole Neo 3 sounds amazing for this top octave duty and compared to a good ribbon(With all due respect!), it's dirt cheap. The Neo 10 run in this configuration(Parametric eq'd with no low pass crossover filter) is easy to implement and sounds(to my ears) silky smooth, natural, and transparent.
Guys, I have measured the Neo 8 bare on a wand - so the polar behavior is a result of its own structure and the grille source width and/or height.
The "usable" horizontal looks like about 130 degrees, and the vertical is about six degrees up or down for about 12 degrees vertical. The preceding is based on plus/minus 3db until you reach a point where the response falls to -6db. Thi seems to hold with or without the recommended notch - in my case I applied the notch at line level.
Hope this is useful.
Keep up the good work!
The "usable" horizontal looks like about 130 degrees, and the vertical is about six degrees up or down for about 12 degrees vertical. The preceding is based on plus/minus 3db until you reach a point where the response falls to -6db. Thi seems to hold with or without the recommended notch - in my case I applied the notch at line level.
Hope this is useful.
Keep up the good work!
If you aren't afraid of a little math, the vertical and horizontal polar response for rectangular ribbons can be approximated rather well using the sinc(theta) function. If used as a dipole, add a cos(theta) multiplier term.
I posted some comparisons (predicted vs measured) for the polar response of the long dimension of the Neo 8 used as a dipole here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/171227-vertical-dispersion-planars-how-much-2.html
I posted some comparisons (predicted vs measured) for the polar response of the long dimension of the Neo 8 used as a dipole here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planars-exotics/171227-vertical-dispersion-planars-how-much-2.html
I work in the pro business, for the most part. I have been designing custom-coverage waveguides for a P.A. contractor who usually gets the job of cleaning up after someone who thought a "flying junkyard" of horns and woofer boxes would work... I got acquainted with Mr. Graebner back in his Speakerlab days, and have watched as he went on the B.G. business in Nevada. I have finally given in to the temptation to see if there is a pro application for multiple Ne0 3's or '8's. I have one of the oldest LMS rigs out there and use it for my polar studies to verify and characterize my waveguides. I will continue to lurk and try to cross-pollinate the pro business with all the creativity I read and see on DIY!
Regards
Regards
Using the Neo 8 with the neo 10 is acoustically sub-optimal. Either your going to waste the upper usable frequencies of the 10, or the lower usable frequencies of the 8. Also, the acoustic centers(compared to the 10 and 3 combo) are to far apart. In order to make it work(correctly) in a vertical or lateral alignment, you would have to waste all the low non-linear distortion midrange benefits of the Neo 10.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.