Bg Neo 10 and Neo 8

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Greg
I went to the bonded logic website to look at the product. I already have that stuff. It's not the bonded logic brand, but the panels are made from High density post consumer cotton, just like the Bonded Logic material. I bought them from Acoustic Insulation | Owens Corning 703 | Acoustical Insulation in the diy section. Extremely dense and very difficult to cut, due to the cotton fibers. You need a very sharp knife. There is a good chance that it is made by the same company. It is only 1". I'm looking int the getting the thicker stuff you mentioned.
Seth
 
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Greg
I went to the bonded logic website to look at the product. I already have that stuff. It's not the bonded logic brand, but the panels are made from High density post consumer cotton, just like the Bonded Logic material. I bought them from Acoustic Insulation | Owens Corning 703 | Acoustical Insulation in the diy section. Extremely dense and very difficult to cut, due to the cotton fibers. You need a very sharp knife. There is a good chance that it is made by the same company. It is only 1". I'm looking int the getting the thicker stuff you mentioned.
Seth

Tell me about it! Wait till you cut the thick stuff......

I ended up doing some Darwin Award stuff and cutting it on the table saw. Works like a charm, but I can't recommend it cause if it ever gets hung up in the blade, it would be a bad day.

That 1" stuff is not the greatest. It does what Siegfried warns against which is frequency selective absorption rather than broadband.

Greg
 
Tell me about it! Wait till you cut the thick stuff......

I ended up doing some Darwin Award stuff and cutting it on the table saw. Works like a charm, but I can't recommend it cause if it ever gets hung up in the blade, it would be a bad day.

That 1" stuff is not the greatest. It does what Siegfried warns against which is frequency selective absorption rather than broadband.

Greg
Darwin Awards? You mean the people that take themselves out of gene pool thing? Cool! What did you do for them?
I'm a big fan of Richard Dawkins... I know!! Your probably saying; "Then why is this guy's favorite piece of music religious in nature? For one, because it's Bach, and for another, because it's performed in German. When you have no idea of what the're saying, a human voice becomes nothing more than just another musical instrument.
I have a large rock music collection, But I love(and hate) classical. I am also a very big fan of acoustic Jazz.
Seth
 
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Darwin Awards? You mean the people that take themselves out of gene pool thing? Cool! What did you do for them?
I'm a big fan of Richard Dawkins... I know!! Your probably saying; "Then why is this guy's favorite piece of music religious in nature? For one, because it's Bach, and for another, because it's performed in German. When you have no idea of what the're saying, a human voice becomes nothing more than just another musical instrument.
I have a large rock music collection, But I love(and hate) classical. I am also a very big fan of acoustic Jazz.
Seth

Haha! Not literally doing work for the Darwin awards. I meant that I could have been a Darwin award by cutting the Bonded Logic on the table saw! Stupid idea, but it worked and I was tired of trying to cut it with scissors or even large upholstery shears.

Back to the Neo10 discussion to get us on topic....

Even with dipole nature cancelling at the sides of the enclosure, you still get a first reflection point along the side walls. Before my side wall absorbers, I had a very unstable center image caused mostly by the non-symmetry of my setup. Left speaker about 6" from the wall, right speaker 3.5 feet. Once the absorbers went up, BAM! I now have a stable, clearly defined center image. Still not as wide and spacious as Bob's studio, but like I said, he really sits in the near field and his monitors are far from the side walls and pretty far apart, so he gets a wide image, but with no holes in the middle. See here for picts:

Staff & Studios

Can you tell what his monitors are?

Having a listen in the sweet spot right now. Sounds great! Ever heard or Kevin Gilbert/Toy Matinee/Giraffe? You should check it out if you are a fan of excellent rock music. Great music, great studio production. A little bright, but excellent mixing otherwise. I recommend the remaster of the Toy Matinee disk. Look at those reviews!!! Too bad it is out of print and costs this much now. Got mine for $15.99 when it came out.

Amazon.com: Toy Matinee Special Edition: Toy Matinee: Music

Greg

P.S. Whats wrong with you? You don't believe we had pet dinosaurs 6000 years ago? Sheez, first no room treatments and now this? There's no hope for some people.
 
Haha! Not literally doing work for the Darwin awards. I meant that I could have been a Darwin award by cutting the Bonded Logic on the table saw! Stupid idea, but it worked and I was tired of trying to cut it with scissors or even large upholstery shears.

Back to the Neo10 discussion to get us on topic....

Even with dipole nature cancelling at the sides of the enclosure, you still get a first reflection point along the side walls. Before my side wall absorbers, I had a very unstable center image caused mostly by the non-symmetry of my setup. Left speaker about 6" from the wall, right speaker 3.5 feet. Once the absorbers went up, BAM! I now have a stable, clearly defined center image. Still not as wide and spacious as Bob's studio, but like I said, he really sits in the near field and his monitors are far from the side walls and pretty far apart, so he gets a wide image, but with no holes in the middle. See here for picts:

Staff & Studios

Can you tell what his monitors are?

Having a listen in the sweet spot right now. Sounds great! Ever heard or Kevin Gilbert/Toy Matinee/Giraffe? You should check it out if you are a fan of excellent rock music. Great music, great studio production. A little bright, but excellent mixing otherwise. I recommend the remaster of the Toy Matinee disk. Look at those reviews!!! Too bad it is out of print and costs this much now. Got mine for $15.99 when it came out.

Amazon.com: Toy Matinee Special Edition: Toy Matinee: Music

Greg

P.S. Whats wrong with you? You don't believe we had pet dinosaurs 6000 years ago? Sheez, first no room treatments and now this? There's no hope for some people.
I totally agree about the first reflection points (But dino? What?? You think he was a dog? No way!) That's Why I do have panels for critical listening. For non-critical listening without the panels, I have a very flat extreme off axis response, so the first reflection looks at least a little bit like the direct response.
I'm not surprised that Bob Katz uses Ultima Gem 2's. Kevin Voecks, in my opinion, is the most knowledgeable and competent loudspeaker designer on the planet. If a desert island had electricity....
Seth
 
Just ordered a Behringer Ultramatch Pro for my Squeezebox touch and sacd player. It will upsample all data to 24/96. It also re-clocks data in asynchronus mode to reduce( Behringer uses the word "eliminates") incoming jitter.The sacd player also upsamples data(If you want).What happens when data is up-sampled twice? Nothing? Something? Does anyone know? The effect will be interesting to say the least. Oh yeah, It also has a rotary master volume control and a headphone out. Very useful.
Seth
 
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Just ordered a Behringer Ultramatch Pro for my Squeezebox touch and sacd player. It will upsample all data to 24/96. It also re-clocks data in asynchronus mode to reduce( Behringer uses the word "eliminates") incoming jitter.The sacd player also upsamples data(If you want).What happens when data is up-sampled twice? Nothing? Something? Does anyone know? The effect will be interesting to say the least. Oh yeah, It also has a rotary master volume control and a headphone out. Very useful.
Seth

Here is an interesting ultramatch review by a guy who really seems to know what he's talking about; Behringer Ultramatch upsampler review
 
Haha! Not literally doing work for the Darwin awards. I meant that I could have been a Darwin award by cutting the Bonded Logic on the table saw! Stupid idea, but it worked and I was tired of trying to cut it with scissors or even large upholstery shears.

Back to the Neo10 discussion to get us on topic....

Even with dipole nature cancelling at the sides of the enclosure, you still get a first reflection point along the side walls. Before my side wall absorbers, I had a very unstable center image caused mostly by the non-symmetry of my setup. Left speaker about 6" from the wall, right speaker 3.5 feet. Once the absorbers went up, BAM! I now have a stable, clearly defined center image. Still not as wide and spacious as Bob's studio, but like I said, he really sits in the near field and his monitors are far from the side walls and pretty far apart, so he gets a wide image, but with no holes in the middle. See here for picts:

Staff & Studios

Can you tell what his monitors are?

Having a listen in the sweet spot right now. Sounds great! Ever heard or Kevin Gilbert/Toy Matinee/Giraffe? You should check it out if you are a fan of excellent rock music. Great music, great studio production. A little bright, but excellent mixing otherwise. I recommend the remaster of the Toy Matinee disk. Look at those reviews!!! Too bad it is out of print and costs this much now. Got mine for $15.99 when it came out.

Amazon.com: Toy Matinee Special Edition: Toy Matinee: Music

Greg

P.S. Whats wrong with you? You don't believe we had pet dinosaurs 6000 years ago? Sheez, first no room treatments and now this? There's no hope for some people.
Greg
Listened to Toy Matinee on Mog. I always thought that first song was a Phil Collins tune. I also noticed a Steve Winwood, Genis and other as of yet undecipherable but noticible influences in the music. I can see how this album could really grow on you over time. You're right about it being a relatively bright but good recording..
Seth
 
There has been some concern on this thread with how I deal with bass issues.

This is how I go about setting up my speakers relative to room width for effectively dealing with the spacing of sidewall modal resonances...
For main speakers.. Room width divided by 3.618 (177/3.618 = 49")
For subwoofers.. Room width divided by 2.618 (177/2.618 = 67.5")
Distance from the front wall is derived by adding the two distances to the sidewall of the subwoofer and main speaker and then dividing that number by 1.618. (49" + 67.5"= 116.5"/2= 58.25"/1.618= 36") from front wall.. This is my own formula, in someways similar and someways very dissimilar to the Cardas approach.
Seth
 
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Greg
No. And I'll explain why. When I decided on going dipole, there were several criteria that needed to be adhered to.

1. It had to be a true dipole.(Measures the same from both sides.)
2. It needed to behave as a point source, up to at least the crossover point.
3. It also needed to be very efficient, play relatively low, and have very low non linear distortion figures. Especially in the 300hz to 3khz region. Although it wasn't a requirement, the purely resistive 7 ohm impedance was certainly a nice Added benefit.

The only "midrange" transducer in the world that fit all of those criteria(That I knew of) was the Neo 10...
Seth
 
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Greg
No. And I'll explain why. When I decided on going dipole, there were several criteria that needed to be adhered to.

1. It had to be a true dipole.(Measures the same from both sides.)
2. It needed to behave as a point source, up to at least the crossover point.
3. It also needed to be very efficient, play relatively low, and have very low non linear distortion figures. Especially in the 300hz to 3khz region. Although it wasn't a requirement, the purely resistive 7 ohm impedance was certainly a nice Added benefit.

The only "midrange" transducer in the world that fit all of those criteria(That I knew of) was the Neo 10...
Seth
One Very important aspect of diy dipole designs that is often ignored, is the importance of a uniform null response to the sides of the speaker. The only way this can be done correctly, is with drivers that measure identically to the front and back. With dipole bass, this is easy, But with almost all midranges and tweeters, the large magnets and rear chambers make achieving this goal impossible. Because the Neo 10 and dipole Neo 3's aren't hindered by these physical limitations, they can potentially create perfectly uniform side nulls. In fact, they play the room very similarly to but without any of the limitations of conventional electrostatic devices.. With these transducers, you can actually create a true dipole point source(Almost..What I mean by point source, in this case, is when the tweeter and midrange responses almost completely overlap at the crossover point relative to the combined overall distance between the top and bottom the two units.) without any(Relatively speaking) dynamic limitations. Has this ever been achieved before? I don't think it has..

Seth
 
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One Very important aspect of diy dipole designs that is often ignored, is the importance of a uniform null response to the sides of the speaker. The only way this can be done correctly, is with drivers that measure identically to the front and back. With dipole bass, this is easy, But with almost all midranges and tweeters, the large magnets and rear chambers make achieving this goal impossible. Because the Neo 10 and dipole Neo 3's aren't hindered by these physical limitations, they can potentially create perfectly uniform side nulls. In fact, they play the room very similarly to but without any of the limitations of conventional electrostatic devices.. With these transducers, you can actually create a true dipole point source(Almost..What I mean by point source, in this case, is when the tweeter and midrange responses almost completely overlap at the crossover point relative to the combined overall distance between the top and bottom the two units.) without any(Relatively speaking) dynamic limitations. Has this ever been achieved before? I don't think it has..


Seth


StigErik was on to something with his baffless design. Did you see his thread? Just raw drivers suspended on large rubber bands or chains. Nothing at all to impede the rear wave from folding around identically to the front. Of course, none of his drivers are the same front and rear as with the Neo series.

Greg
 
Greg
Out of curiosity, what mid drivers did you test along with the Neo 10?

Revelator 15W
an array of PE Ref 100
Peerless nomex 4" thing
an array or Peerless 2" drivers
Zaphs driver
Tang Band titanium 4"
Tang Band flat aluminum honeycomb thing
Tang Band fullrange dealy.
Lambda TD6
18 Sound 6" thing Zaph tested.

Sorry, too lazy to track down the exact model numbers.

Each one listened to in a box and on a baffle run both filtered and wide open and a part of a mocked up three way. Lambda was excellent, but had that dip and huge magnet blocking rear radiation, 18 Sound was great, Revelator was excellent, but I had already used these way back when they were first released to DIY and didn't have the sensitivity I was looking for. Everything else let me down. Some by omission, others by real nasty sound even filtered.

Anyone want some gently used drivers?

Greg
 
Greg
No. And I'll explain why. When I decided on going dipole, there were several criteria that needed to be adhered to.

1. It had to be a true dipole.(Measures the same from both sides.)
2. It needed to behave as a point source, up to at least the crossover point.
3. It also needed to be very efficient, play relatively low, and have very low non linear distortion figures. Especially in the 300hz to 3khz region. Although it wasn't a requirement, the purely resistive 7 ohm impedance was certainly a nice Added benefit.

The only "midrange" transducer in the world that fit all of those criteria(That I knew of) was the Neo 10...
Seth

I hear ya. Good thing they finally released it!

Greg
 
StigErik was on to something with his baffless design. Did you see his thread? Just raw drivers suspended on large rubber bands or chains. Nothing at all to impede the rear wave from folding around identically to the front. Of course, none of his drivers are the same front and rear as with the Neo series.

Greg

Greg
Interesting design. Very expensive to implement(because of the high acoustic cut off point of each driver, you have to use many progressively larger drivers to pull the design off.)and ultimately flawed because each baffle(The driver becomes it's own baffle) is round and the acoustic response of round baffles at just above the lower cutoff point is terrible..
Seth
 
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Revelator 15W
an array of PE Ref 100
Peerless nomex 4" thing
an array or Peerless 2" drivers
Zaphs driver
Tang Band titanium 4"
Tang Band flat aluminum honeycomb thing
Tang Band fullrange dealy.
Lambda TD6
18 Sound 6" thing Zaph tested.

Sorry, too lazy to track down the exact model numbers.

Each one listened to in a box and on a baffle run both filtered and wide open and a part of a mocked up three way. Lambda was excellent, but had that dip and huge magnet blocking rear radiation, 18 Sound was great, Revelator was excellent, but I had already used these way back when they were first released to DIY and didn't have the sensitivity I was looking for. Everything else let me down. Some by omission, others by real nasty sound even filtered.

Anyone want some gently used drivers?

Greg
Greg
I'm very familiar with the spec's on all of them and the sound of some of them.
Seth
 
One Very important aspect of diy dipole designs that is often ignored, is the importance of a uniform null response to the sides of the speaker. The only way this can be done correctly, is with drivers that measure identically to the front and back. With dipole bass, this is easy, But with almost all midranges and tweeters, the large magnets and rear chambers make achieving this goal impossible. Because the Neo 10 and dipole Neo 3's aren't hindered by these physical limitations, they can potentially create perfectly uniform side nulls. In fact, they play the room very similarly to but without any of the limitations of conventional electrostatic devices.. With these transducers, you can actually create a true dipole point source(Almost..What I mean by point source, in this case, is when the tweeter and midrange responses almost completely overlap at the crossover point relative to the combined overall distance between the top and bottom the two units.) without any(Relatively speaking) dynamic limitations. Has this ever been achieved before? I don't think it has..

Seth
Duh.. Come to think of it, Quad ESL's are true dipole point source designs with reasonable(Latest models)dynamic range capabilities.
Seth
 
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This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.