I believe I am right that the average stator is around 90-91... when done correctly... right? I have a folded horn design I am looking at that hits 100 spl.
Now I somewhat understand this as this has to do with sensitivity and efficiency. What can I do to improve my chances that the stator will be in the same ballpark.
Also... in audio terms does the ear notice a 3db difference... how sensitive is the ear in mid or high or low range if anyone knows.
Thanks... sorry if I am creating too many threads... just have questions is all and haven't seen answers when I create the thread...
Now I somewhat understand this as this has to do with sensitivity and efficiency. What can I do to improve my chances that the stator will be in the same ballpark.
Also... in audio terms does the ear notice a 3db difference... how sensitive is the ear in mid or high or low range if anyone knows.
Thanks... sorry if I am creating too many threads... just have questions is all and haven't seen answers when I create the thread...
Once you get one running than you will be able to start to understand their characteristics
And what you can do to improve them, but first you must find the beginning faults.
Area is a Big factor.
It took a lot of bias voltage and a very high transformation ratio to get my little panel to match the efficiency of my little Sony 5.25" two way mini speakers.
If I am not mistaking it took two panels to do it, this was about 64sq. inches and the ratio was somewhere in the 1:400 range.
I had documented this in one of the threads but the details escape me at the moment,because at the time I was having issues of my amplifier shutting down a lot due to the extreme loads placed upon it.
I was using a cheapy Aiwa cd player and it is very sensitive to load impedance's.
It is rated at 80watts at 6 ohms, But I rarely can get it to work with two speakers connected to it much less the ESL tests that I put it through.
Every time it glitched, I had to go through the procedure of resetting it,waiting for it to power up and then go through all off the motions of turning off the DSP and putting all of the test settings back.
What I distraction this was for less than a few seconds of play time.
But I pushed through and it was a trooper as it still works today as I beat the living crap out of it for those tests.
And it now shows only some minor crossover distortion issue on one channel.
One day I will repair it,But for now it is off of my list as being a super clean sounding amp.
The point of when my panel exploded with a good big amplifier was were I had left off with my ESL's, as I had to stop and re arrange my studio to accommodate some more stuff and solve a few ground loop issues,as well as recently finishing my variable bias supply.
On the average the ear can detect a difference of 1db others may be able to do better than this as it can be subjective.
This is part of how the Decibel was created.
Sometimes it would be easier to keep all of your questions under one thread instead of opening a new one for every subject as many of these have been discussed extensively in many other threads and it is easy to repost a link, as to try and keep things organized.
I can't tell you how many times I have had to go back and find those links as they get buried very quickly.
But I still don't mind as I am here to help one understand the mysterious ESL better.
I always try to encourage people to try this technology and I do boast about it being easy to do.
The construction of the panels is very simple if you follow certain guidelines as working with High Voltages is no joke.
You can build a panel with a minimal amount insulation and infact no insulation and it will work with a small bias voltage around the 2kv range,but getting to 6Kv to 7.5Kv range was quite a challenge.
But once I got it there, it was it was very impressive indeed.
I had absolutely no idea that the little panel that I originally struggled to get a sound out of would one day blow me out of the room!!
My friend Mavric's panels I did hear over the phone (we had an extremely clean connection) and they sounded awesome and they were so loud that I could hear them plain as day while he was outside on is front porch with all of the doors and windows closed.
As he struggled to get his woofers to keep up,I am sure that even Charlie can attest to this problem,as we have discussed this before.
There is a whole thread were he had documented the construction of them and they were 16" X 48" on a 2kv to 3kv bias supply using those very same Antek transformers that you got on an Adcom 125Watt amplifier.
Keep pushin' on !!
jer
And what you can do to improve them, but first you must find the beginning faults.
Area is a Big factor.
It took a lot of bias voltage and a very high transformation ratio to get my little panel to match the efficiency of my little Sony 5.25" two way mini speakers.
If I am not mistaking it took two panels to do it, this was about 64sq. inches and the ratio was somewhere in the 1:400 range.
I had documented this in one of the threads but the details escape me at the moment,because at the time I was having issues of my amplifier shutting down a lot due to the extreme loads placed upon it.
I was using a cheapy Aiwa cd player and it is very sensitive to load impedance's.
It is rated at 80watts at 6 ohms, But I rarely can get it to work with two speakers connected to it much less the ESL tests that I put it through.
Every time it glitched, I had to go through the procedure of resetting it,waiting for it to power up and then go through all off the motions of turning off the DSP and putting all of the test settings back.
What I distraction this was for less than a few seconds of play time.
But I pushed through and it was a trooper as it still works today as I beat the living crap out of it for those tests.
And it now shows only some minor crossover distortion issue on one channel.
One day I will repair it,But for now it is off of my list as being a super clean sounding amp.
The point of when my panel exploded with a good big amplifier was were I had left off with my ESL's, as I had to stop and re arrange my studio to accommodate some more stuff and solve a few ground loop issues,as well as recently finishing my variable bias supply.
On the average the ear can detect a difference of 1db others may be able to do better than this as it can be subjective.
This is part of how the Decibel was created.
Sometimes it would be easier to keep all of your questions under one thread instead of opening a new one for every subject as many of these have been discussed extensively in many other threads and it is easy to repost a link, as to try and keep things organized.
I can't tell you how many times I have had to go back and find those links as they get buried very quickly.
But I still don't mind as I am here to help one understand the mysterious ESL better.
I always try to encourage people to try this technology and I do boast about it being easy to do.
The construction of the panels is very simple if you follow certain guidelines as working with High Voltages is no joke.
You can build a panel with a minimal amount insulation and infact no insulation and it will work with a small bias voltage around the 2kv range,but getting to 6Kv to 7.5Kv range was quite a challenge.
But once I got it there, it was it was very impressive indeed.
I had absolutely no idea that the little panel that I originally struggled to get a sound out of would one day blow me out of the room!!
My friend Mavric's panels I did hear over the phone (we had an extremely clean connection) and they sounded awesome and they were so loud that I could hear them plain as day while he was outside on is front porch with all of the doors and windows closed.
As he struggled to get his woofers to keep up,I am sure that even Charlie can attest to this problem,as we have discussed this before.
There is a whole thread were he had documented the construction of them and they were 16" X 48" on a 2kv to 3kv bias supply using those very same Antek transformers that you got on an Adcom 125Watt amplifier.
Keep pushin' on !!
jer
My friend Mavric's panels I did hear over the phone (we had an extremely clean connection) and they sounded awesome and they were so loud that I could hear them plain as day while he was outside on is front porch with all of the doors and windows closed.
As he struggled to get his woofers to keep up,I am sure that even Charlie can attest to this problem,as we have discussed this before.
There is a whole thread were he had documented the construction of them and they were 16" X 48" on a 2kv to 3kv bias supply using those very same Antek transformers that you got on an Adcom 125Watt amplifier.
Keep pushin' on !!
jer
Actually, Mavric's ESL's used a tandem of Farnell/Multi-Comp 30VA 230v/2x6v transformers and a 2KV bias supply with 1/16 d/s spacing and they play very loud and sound great. Of course, the Antek trannies are larger (50VA) so would handle more power before reaching saturation (not likely to happen driving a hybrid panel-- they would blow your ear drums out first).
Mavric's panels are slightly larger in area than mine and he uses 8" woofers in a transmission line. My slightly smaller panels are mated to 10" woofers and even the 10's can't keep up with my panels when I really crank them up-- so I added a pair of subwoofers to share the load and now they blow women's panties right off!
What was Mavric crossing at and what type?
Your post seems to imply as well that sometimes perhaps... sacrificing efficiency in design might be a worthy goal? If for example a design of your woofer is say 87db and your panel is 91db at 1/16th if you then could go larger d/s and solve two problems at once. ??
I will put this thread here then...
Regarding the woofers. Can you attach an amplifier to a speaker to work with the desk amplifier without biamping? Kind of like... raising the efficiency of the speakers in a way? I was reading on Scanspeak drivers and it was made clear why that if you want a true audiophile experience high efficiency of your woofers is key. Has to do with - well our range of sensitivity as far as hearing. They used an orchestra as an example.
Your post seems to imply as well that sometimes perhaps... sacrificing efficiency in design might be a worthy goal? If for example a design of your woofer is say 87db and your panel is 91db at 1/16th if you then could go larger d/s and solve two problems at once. ??
I will put this thread here then...
Regarding the woofers. Can you attach an amplifier to a speaker to work with the desk amplifier without biamping? Kind of like... raising the efficiency of the speakers in a way? I was reading on Scanspeak drivers and it was made clear why that if you want a true audiophile experience high efficiency of your woofers is key. Has to do with - well our range of sensitivity as far as hearing. They used an orchestra as an example.
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He was using a Beringer analog adjustable crossover as depicted in his thread so I am not sure exactly what frequency he ended up with,But it remember that it was in the 400hz to 500hz range.
there is know reason to use a large D/S unless you plan on going well below the 300hz range and into 200hz and lower.
It is never a good thing to sacrifice efficiency as all that does is require you to use more power.
Remember that if you need an extra 10db of SPL then you will need 10 times more power.
You won't be finding any loudness issues at about 350hz and up with an esl of moderate size,it is the low frequency's that they struggle with and only a larger displacement can solve for this.
Plug your size data and voltages as set into this calculator and it will give you a very good idea as what to expect out of your panel.
Electrostatic Loudspeaker (ESL) Simulator
The calculator is set to 4 meters so change that setting to 1 as this will give you a 10db difference.
I don't have an SPL meter that work any more other wise I could give you a better idea of what my little panels can do but I can assure you that it was well above 110db or 115db wide open and above about 400hz.
And the higher the frequency got, the louder it got,my ears don't feel pain anymore and the start to compress and attenuate the sound after a very short time and it doesn't sound loud to me anymore.
I do not understand what you are asking in your second question as it you are not specifying what amplifiers or speaker drivers and there configurations and placement.
jer
there is know reason to use a large D/S unless you plan on going well below the 300hz range and into 200hz and lower.
It is never a good thing to sacrifice efficiency as all that does is require you to use more power.
Remember that if you need an extra 10db of SPL then you will need 10 times more power.
You won't be finding any loudness issues at about 350hz and up with an esl of moderate size,it is the low frequency's that they struggle with and only a larger displacement can solve for this.
Plug your size data and voltages as set into this calculator and it will give you a very good idea as what to expect out of your panel.
Electrostatic Loudspeaker (ESL) Simulator
The calculator is set to 4 meters so change that setting to 1 as this will give you a 10db difference.
I don't have an SPL meter that work any more other wise I could give you a better idea of what my little panels can do but I can assure you that it was well above 110db or 115db wide open and above about 400hz.
And the higher the frequency got, the louder it got,my ears don't feel pain anymore and the start to compress and attenuate the sound after a very short time and it doesn't sound loud to me anymore.
I do not understand what you are asking in your second question as it you are not specifying what amplifiers or speaker drivers and there configurations and placement.
jer
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