To recap, you diss'ed ESLs because they can't play sound right because mixers like yourself (movies, TV...) mix for other kinds of speakers and, you said, sound just isn't right, to your ears, on ESLs. Which relates to the topic of this thread.
I pointed out the obvious problem that, taking YOUR point of view to its logical conclusion, mixers should use crap speakers for their mixing because that's the way most of their audience will hear their sound.
In my last post, I gently joked unless your movies are failures, your movies aren't just for theatres but ALSO get played at home on crap speakers and so anybody (like you) who believes there needs to be a harmony between mixer's speakers and home speakers can't evade the problem by claiming THEIR sound is only for theatres.
I think you have posted enough abuse. Please stop.
Toole says ambiance is a main correlate of happiness with a sound system. Dipole ESLs have an abundance of ambiance*.
Ben
*But high-frequency beaming is one of their shortcomings.
I pointed out the obvious problem that, taking YOUR point of view to its logical conclusion, mixers should use crap speakers for their mixing because that's the way most of their audience will hear their sound.
In my last post, I gently joked unless your movies are failures, your movies aren't just for theatres but ALSO get played at home on crap speakers and so anybody (like you) who believes there needs to be a harmony between mixer's speakers and home speakers can't evade the problem by claiming THEIR sound is only for theatres.
I think you have posted enough abuse. Please stop.
Toole says ambiance is a main correlate of happiness with a sound system. Dipole ESLs have an abundance of ambiance*.
Ben
*But high-frequency beaming is one of their shortcomings.
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abuse ? maybe you should reread ur posts and see the abuse. i just commented on someones post. you came along being a bitch and insulting. some anger you got there, had any troubles in the past about this subject >?
ok im done with you Ben. theres now way of talking with you. so i leave it at that.
good by and Ignore.
ok im done with you Ben. theres now way of talking with you. so i leave it at that.
good by and Ignore.
Hi Guys,
I like to build my very first ESL's and can use a lot info from you who already build them.
What I do want is enough sound pressure and like to use them for SACD and DVDA frequencies.....
So what do you experts think is that possible at all?
What max frequency is possible with ESL's?
Charlie, what you build looks amazingly good, did you ever measure the frequency response?
For starters I am mostly interested in the mechanical past of the ESL's, electronics is for later.
Can "we" buy a ready to use diagram, with coating, what is the best material, is it still Mylar or is there something better now?
Suggestions are appreciated.
Edmund
I like to build my very first ESL's and can use a lot info from you who already build them.
What I do want is enough sound pressure and like to use them for SACD and DVDA frequencies.....
So what do you experts think is that possible at all?
What max frequency is possible with ESL's?
Charlie, what you build looks amazingly good, did you ever measure the frequency response?
For starters I am mostly interested in the mechanical past of the ESL's, electronics is for later.
Can "we" buy a ready to use diagram, with coating, what is the best material, is it still Mylar or is there something better now?
Suggestions are appreciated.
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
ESL's with 6-micron or lighter diaphragms and good transformers can play to 20kHz+. I don't have a frequency response plot for my speaker that I can post for you, but I do use a DEQ-2496 EQ, with a microphone, and it shows response to 20kHz (the unit's RTA scale only reads to 20kHz and my digital crossover cuts off all output above 20kHz anyway).
As far as I know, polyester film (Mylar or Hostaphan) is still the preferred material for diaphragms. I'm not aware of any pre-coated film available for DIY use. The Licron Crystal coating isn't cheap but it's super easy-- 1 coat sprayed "just wet" is pretty much foolproof.
good luck with your project!
Hi,
The lowest frequency of an ESL is determined by many factors :
1) Needed SPL at that "lowest frequency"
2) Fundamental resonance of the diaphragm
3) Smallest dimension of the ESL or it's baffle
4) Step-up transformer core saturation
5) Capacitive load seen by amplifier which becomes worse and worse when step-up ratio(drive voltage) is increased. Lower frequency typically requires larger distances between film and stators and much higher voltages to drive.
6) Buzzing noises caused by structure/dust etc.
IMO i'ts not a good place to start a first project by trying to make a full range ESL. It's not an easy job like some people imagine - at all. With frequencies below 100Hz or so problems start to increase very rapidly.
The lowest frequency of an ESL is determined by many factors :
1) Needed SPL at that "lowest frequency"
2) Fundamental resonance of the diaphragm
3) Smallest dimension of the ESL or it's baffle
4) Step-up transformer core saturation
5) Capacitive load seen by amplifier which becomes worse and worse when step-up ratio(drive voltage) is increased. Lower frequency typically requires larger distances between film and stators and much higher voltages to drive.
6) Buzzing noises caused by structure/dust etc.
IMO i'ts not a good place to start a first project by trying to make a full range ESL. It's not an easy job like some people imagine - at all. With frequencies below 100Hz or so problems start to increase very rapidly.
I always joke that I'm not smart enough to build a full range ESL, and while that's true, I think Roger Sanders would say you can't get truly deep, clean, powerful bass from a full range ESL anyway, due to the diaphragm resonance problem and the dipole roll-off. For me, I just found it easier to build a hybrid. And I think you can still get pretty good blending by using a line array of OB woofers or, as in my case, a low-Q transmission line enclosure coupled to a woofer with relatively low voice coil inductance and low moving mass (for fast transient speed).
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Thank you guys for your quick replies.
BTW I don't think of building an ESL for the low frequencies, the important thing is the mid part and if possible the (very) high frequencies too.
But let me take one step at the time.
First thing I will do is order some Mylar ( and coating stuff ) and look at the mechanical properties of it and find a way how to assamble it.
Edmund
BTW I don't think of building an ESL for the low frequencies, the important thing is the mid part and if possible the (very) high frequencies too.
But let me take one step at the time.
First thing I will do is order some Mylar ( and coating stuff ) and look at the mechanical properties of it and find a way how to assamble it.
Edmund
The acceleration is determined by both mass and force(F=ma). So a lighter cone dynamic driver is not necessary a recipe for "fast" , or whatever it means, bass.
The driver's tendency to resonate is determined by its Q at resonance frequency. Typically systems with Q > 0.5 will exhibit more or less ringing after sound stops. So some prefer dynamic drivers with Q<0.5. However the room may still resonate for many cycles after that, so placement and enclosure type(e.g dipole vs monopole systems) may be decisive factors.
Basically clean and deep bass with ESL is possible but you are running into very large systems indeed(in the order > ~0.5-1 m^2 or so). Also harmonic and intermodulation distortion will rise due to excitation of the fundamental resonance. Another problem is very high Q of an ESL at its resonance which must be dealt with in one way or another. Still large surface area combined with dipole character can be advantageous when room is taken into equation.
While at first glance perforated steel sheets seem to be the simplest solution it is no longer so when you try to coat it so it can withstand required voltages without arching. So some prefer to make speakers from PVC insulated or some types of magnet wire. While initially there is more work, this has some quite serious advantages : a) good insulation and no arching; b) possibility to use electrical segmentation so dispersion pattern can be make narrow or wide for one's preference.
Regards,
Lukas.
The driver's tendency to resonate is determined by its Q at resonance frequency. Typically systems with Q > 0.5 will exhibit more or less ringing after sound stops. So some prefer dynamic drivers with Q<0.5. However the room may still resonate for many cycles after that, so placement and enclosure type(e.g dipole vs monopole systems) may be decisive factors.
Basically clean and deep bass with ESL is possible but you are running into very large systems indeed(in the order > ~0.5-1 m^2 or so). Also harmonic and intermodulation distortion will rise due to excitation of the fundamental resonance. Another problem is very high Q of an ESL at its resonance which must be dealt with in one way or another. Still large surface area combined with dipole character can be advantageous when room is taken into equation.
While at first glance perforated steel sheets seem to be the simplest solution it is no longer so when you try to coat it so it can withstand required voltages without arching. So some prefer to make speakers from PVC insulated or some types of magnet wire. While initially there is more work, this has some quite serious advantages : a) good insulation and no arching; b) possibility to use electrical segmentation so dispersion pattern can be make narrow or wide for one's preference.
Regards,
Lukas.
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Suppliers for ESL parts in Germany or The Netherlands?
I try to order the most basic things like a membrane and coating material
and end up with Australian suppliers of in China
Not to mention I found :
“Mylar(R) is the registered trademark owned by the E.I. Dupont Corporation for Bi-Axially Oriented Polyester Film. There are dozens of different types and grades of Mylar(R), however the term is generically used to describe a range of different films.”
Can someone help me with what type of Mylar I exactly need for an ESL?
Since I found that some specialist in Australia has 3.5 micron which gives the best performance, I am looking for that thickness and give or take 600mm wide.
Edmund
I try to order the most basic things like a membrane and coating material
and end up with Australian suppliers of in China
Not to mention I found :
“Mylar(R) is the registered trademark owned by the E.I. Dupont Corporation for Bi-Axially Oriented Polyester Film. There are dozens of different types and grades of Mylar(R), however the term is generically used to describe a range of different films.”
Can someone help me with what type of Mylar I exactly need for an ESL?
Since I found that some specialist in Australia has 3.5 micron which gives the best performance, I am looking for that thickness and give or take 600mm wide.
Edmund
Yes, TechSpray Licron Crystal #1756 is what you want. I use the #1756-8S, which comes in an 8-oz aerosol spray can. I haven't tried the 1756 non-aerosol liquid.
One coat of the spray leaves a 2-micron thick film that's almost clear. Since it dries that thin and light, I don't see any need to try and dilute it or spread it thinner to save mass, as some are want to do. This is my preference.
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Mylar type C is used for capacitors and electronic
Great choice but hard to find in wide widths.
Mylar type D is typically used for books and print coverings and is more commonly available.
It is a very transparent type of mylar
There many different types and some that have a heat sensitive glue backings such as model airplane coverings like Monokote and on some wrapped food products like you find on the top of TV dinners.
I am not sure but the R type that you have mentioned may be a reflective type, commonly used for reflective window coverings and such as well as antistatic bags and mylar balloons.
Don't quote me on this though as I have not found this label listing on the Dupont site yet.
Film Type Selector
Typically you want a mylar that is tensilized or has already been pre-stretched.
tensilized mylar - Google Search
As mylar will keep stretching up to a point then it will stop stretching.
This could cause the panel to lose its tension in time if it is not a tensilized type and would have to be re-tensioned.
This can easily be dealt with if you are using a mechanical stretcher by doing a test on a sample and making note on how far your sample can be stretched before breakage.
Typically that would be about 2%.
But a un-tensilized type may be able to stretch by as much as 4% or more before it stops stretching depending on its gauge of thickness.
jer
Great choice but hard to find in wide widths.
Mylar type D is typically used for books and print coverings and is more commonly available.
It is a very transparent type of mylar
There many different types and some that have a heat sensitive glue backings such as model airplane coverings like Monokote and on some wrapped food products like you find on the top of TV dinners.
I am not sure but the R type that you have mentioned may be a reflective type, commonly used for reflective window coverings and such as well as antistatic bags and mylar balloons.
Don't quote me on this though as I have not found this label listing on the Dupont site yet.
Film Type Selector
Typically you want a mylar that is tensilized or has already been pre-stretched.
tensilized mylar - Google Search
As mylar will keep stretching up to a point then it will stop stretching.
This could cause the panel to lose its tension in time if it is not a tensilized type and would have to be re-tensioned.
This can easily be dealt with if you are using a mechanical stretcher by doing a test on a sample and making note on how far your sample can be stretched before breakage.
Typically that would be about 2%.
But a un-tensilized type may be able to stretch by as much as 4% or more before it stops stretching depending on its gauge of thickness.
jer
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Suppliers for ESL parts in Germany or The Netherlands?
I try to order the most basic things like a membrane and coating material
and end up with Australian suppliers of in China
Not to mention I found :
“Mylar(R) is the registered trademark owned by the E.I. Dupont Corporation for Bi-Axially Oriented Polyester Film. There are dozens of different types and grades of Mylar(R), however the term is generically used to describe a range of different films.”
Can someone help me with what type of Mylar I exactly need for an ESL?
Since I found that some specialist in Australia has 3.5 micron which gives the best performance, I am looking for that thickness and give or take 600mm wide.
Edmund
Hi Edmund,
No need to look in china or australia.
Check out the ESL-club in your own country.
You will find me there
Greetings from Holland
Hi Edmund,
No need to look in china or australia.
Check out the ESL-club in your own country.
You will find me there
Greetings from Holland
And there are more supliers in the Netherlands (wich you can not find at the "esl-club"). I know a man in Haren(Groningen) who sells also mylar and I could deliver high quality costum made esl tansformers a well.
Greetings from the Netherlands again
So many dutch esl builders on this forum
I guess you are wrong, at least that was not why i build my own esl.
I build my own because i think i could do "better". And really good esl transformers are not normally available so i decided to build my own transformer too.
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