Meat (sorry), with all due respect, I think you misunderstood what MrAcoustat was saying. These speakers (actually all ESL speakers, except maybe Quads) are very finicky to get sound right, and there are many amps (regardless of price) that don't bring out the best of these speakers. I have noticed this firsthand, and can agree, these speakers really can bring some amps to their knees.
It is, after all, exactly why Jim Strickland (founder of Acoustat) designed the Acoustat TNT amp specifically to drive these speakers.
The TNT amp is a great ESL amp by the way - they may sound goofy on other speakers, but it is specifically designed to deal with the crazy impedance of an ESL speaker.
There is a great white paper from Roger Sanders (sanderssoundsystems.com) that explains why it takes a special amp to drive ESLs. It takes lots of Voltage (of course many disagree) to drive them.
I was a bit skeptical of why so much voltage is needed, until I did a little test - you can find it here on this site - DIYAudio memmber Pano put it together - shows haw many volts your speakers are requiring to be at a loud listening level...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-how-much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
You see that there are just of few of poll responders that indicated they needed over 20V, and I bet they are all ESL speakers.
I am at post #783. My ESLs were requiring 26V to be at the level I will most likely never eclipse, which was an amp that had 104V peak, and 73V RMS - giving am amp that has the +/- 90 V rails - that 900 watts @4 ohms! This is exactly what Jim is saying. ESLs need VOLTAGE!!!
I trust that you will see you need that kind of power (voltage) to drive the Acoustats, so your amp does not clip. Your Emotiva just may handle it...why not try it out? Take the test with both your ESLs and then same test and same amp/pre/source on a conventional cone speaker - you will really be surprised at the results - really kinda cool!
I actually would venture a request that all Acoustat lovers try the test to see what kinda voltage demands your Acoustat speakers are placing on your amp to sound best (not clip), and to prove, as Roger says, an amp with puny +/- 30v rails or less simply can't do the job....
It is, after all, exactly why Jim Strickland (founder of Acoustat) designed the Acoustat TNT amp specifically to drive these speakers.
The TNT amp is a great ESL amp by the way - they may sound goofy on other speakers, but it is specifically designed to deal with the crazy impedance of an ESL speaker.
There is a great white paper from Roger Sanders (sanderssoundsystems.com) that explains why it takes a special amp to drive ESLs. It takes lots of Voltage (of course many disagree) to drive them.
I was a bit skeptical of why so much voltage is needed, until I did a little test - you can find it here on this site - DIYAudio memmber Pano put it together - shows haw many volts your speakers are requiring to be at a loud listening level...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/204857-test-how-much-voltage-power-do-your-speakers-need.html
You see that there are just of few of poll responders that indicated they needed over 20V, and I bet they are all ESL speakers.
I am at post #783. My ESLs were requiring 26V to be at the level I will most likely never eclipse, which was an amp that had 104V peak, and 73V RMS - giving am amp that has the +/- 90 V rails - that 900 watts @4 ohms! This is exactly what Jim is saying. ESLs need VOLTAGE!!!
I trust that you will see you need that kind of power (voltage) to drive the Acoustats, so your amp does not clip. Your Emotiva just may handle it...why not try it out? Take the test with both your ESLs and then same test and same amp/pre/source on a conventional cone speaker - you will really be surprised at the results - really kinda cool!
I actually would venture a request that all Acoustat lovers try the test to see what kinda voltage demands your Acoustat speakers are placing on your amp to sound best (not clip), and to prove, as Roger says, an amp with puny +/- 30v rails or less simply can't do the job....
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JohnB, I fully agree with your assumption on voltage, I myself found that amps with high rail voltages worked better on all models of acoustats that I've owned. Most won't agree, but each to their own. My home built amps run 90V rails with 1000VA trafos 66000uf per channel and sound excellent on my Acoustats.
I have not tried it myself, but have been told by some that you can run the Servo amps on them.
One fellow said he tried both and preferred the interface with the 1+1 instead of the Servo's.
But then, like mine, alot of the Servo amps have been upgraded, so that may not hold true all the time.
But hears some food for thought: The interfaces have different taps that one can switch over depending on how many panels one is running. The Servo amps do not have different taps, so maybe that is what can make the difference. ?
I moved to Calgary a few months ago and I know Moray James is around this neck of the woods, and he has 1+1. Maybe sometime in the future we can try my Servo amps on his 1+1's and we can see how they sound!! :O)
The Servos will definitely work with a 1+1, although perhaps not as well as with the 3 or 4 panel, single height models they were originally sold with. I have read forum posts (can't remember if it was here or somewhere else) of people using them together successfully. The Servos have some EQ circuitry which allows the speakers to be closer to the wall behind them than the interfaces allow, generally 3 feet is considered the ideal distance (which has been borne out in my experience) while with the interfaces they like to be more like 4-5 feet out.
Sorry to say - I am not trying to insult anyone, but the sanders paper about their amplifiers looks like an advertising crap. It gives an impression that amplifier that's not rated at around 100V and hundreds of amps should sound bad.
But where we have any measurements confirming most of conventional amps go into current clipping while playing music and sounds into ESL load ?
Yes the impedance drops considerably with frequency but so drops the average and peak output voltage. At 20 kHz peaks are 10-20db lower with most of music content.
Also although statements like "power amplifier can add over $100 per month to their electric bill" are true in some rare cases its very, very unusual.
A lot of ESLs have comparable efficiency to HiFi cone based systems(let's say, quads etc.).
So there is no understandable argument why it should need more voltage.
Furthermore, with a 73Vrms amp its easy to bring stepup transformer into saturation if its not designed for that voltage and in addition to poor sound quality its possible to do damage to panels or something else.
I cannot agree that a very high voltage & current amplifier is necessary or even recommended in most of cases.
Regards,
Lukas.
Medium power great result
You´re of course right here.
But what Mr. Acoustat tries to point out is that Acoustat Electrostatics are pretty sensitive about the electronics that drive them.
As said before powerratings are not the sole factor upon which you can assess a valid judgement.
There are some good secondhand amps that would drive them properly and won´t cost a fortune:
Acoustat´s TNT-200 of course, Krell KSA-50, Levinson ML-11 (better then the Bryston 4B I had) a Sumo Nine (and Nine plus), Threshold /200, S/300 and SA/3 to mention a few.
The all drove my Acoustats fine and because you live in the States wre they make those amps you can get them for a steal compared to the prices they demand over her in Europe.
Success
You´re of course right here.
But what Mr. Acoustat tries to point out is that Acoustat Electrostatics are pretty sensitive about the electronics that drive them.
As said before powerratings are not the sole factor upon which you can assess a valid judgement.
There are some good secondhand amps that would drive them properly and won´t cost a fortune:
Acoustat´s TNT-200 of course, Krell KSA-50, Levinson ML-11 (better then the Bryston 4B I had) a Sumo Nine (and Nine plus), Threshold /200, S/300 and SA/3 to mention a few.
The all drove my Acoustats fine and because you live in the States wre they make those amps you can get them for a steal compared to the prices they demand over her in Europe.
Success
The Levinson ML-3 you had and I had delivered Voltage and Current just wat an Acoustat needs!
I´ve had the TNT-200 also but the ML-3 drove them to great heights.
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Bazukas - why not try the test? If your pulling 20+ Volts from your amp to get to the highest listening levels , would you be convinced?
Sure he trying to sell amps, and I also thought it was crazy, until I did the test myself.
BrianEno (Always wanted to ask - are you THE Brian Eno?) I never got to trying the ML-3 on the Acoustat - sold them before getting the Acoustats...it was a good amp...would have loved to hear them together....
Sure he trying to sell amps, and I also thought it was crazy, until I did the test myself.
BrianEno (Always wanted to ask - are you THE Brian Eno?) I never got to trying the ML-3 on the Acoustat - sold them before getting the Acoustats...it was a good amp...would have loved to hear them together....
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No, I just picked an alias I liked and could remember.
My understanding of the English language gives it away immediately...
Not the right choice, I should change it.
The ML-3 surfaces so now and the then in the States for $2k. It's not so outrageously expensive like the LNP-2, ML-7(a) and ML6 (ab).
TAS (read Harry Pearson and John Nork both Audio Research aficionados) did not like it and quarelled a lot with Mark Levinson the man in those days starting with the ML-1 preamp. Stereophile the other subjective audio-magazine at that time never tested any MLAS (ML series) product till 1986 when J. Gordon Holt reviewed the ML-7a already produced under Madrigal banner. Just if the Mark Levinson brand didn't exist in from 1973 till 1985.
So the ML-3 got no favorable press in the US (apart from the Audio magazine ) but Mark stated at that time that Sprague could not produce enough of those big blue 1 litre large can capacitors to fulfil the demand for this amp.
So there must be plenty around and I liked the ML-3 on my Acoustats although my current ML-2's are better.
Hi,
I have done similar tests in a bit different way. Yes my system is still listenable with peaks@20Vrms but that's damn loud and not comfortable at all. The room is about 15m^2, listening distance ~2-3 meters and sensitivity ~81-82db/2.83V.
Normally I am listening at only a small fraction of max. output.
A lot depends on the recording material. Some are compressed and sound much louder than others. Recordings with high dynamic range have low overall SPL level but very high peaks.
Have you tested with different music styles etc.? I bet the figures will be quite different.
BTW What is the sensitivity of your speakers and listening distance?
Regards.
Lukas.
Ok, believe it or not, my Sanders 10c are supposedly in the 90's (the ESL) and does not equate with the power requirements Roger was referring to. I have not reconciled that with him.
Yes. I agree that if your not listening at levels requiring 20v, you will never need that power requirement, but its nice to know my Innersound ESL amp doesn't clip at my highest listening level...
That leads me to BrianEno's ML-2 - honestly, can they drive the Acoustats to loud levels? Do you clip before you get to your loudest levels?
Yes. I agree that if your not listening at levels requiring 20v, you will never need that power requirement, but its nice to know my Innersound ESL amp doesn't clip at my highest listening level...
That leads me to BrianEno's ML-2 - honestly, can they drive the Acoustats to loud levels? Do you clip before you get to your loudest levels?
Although subjective I never feel the need to play at levels where the ML-2´s clip. The character of the sound just doesn´t change when turning down the volume. But I wouldn´t call them adjusted when you want to play at levels where you can´t have a conversation at one feet apart.
My point is that my Japanese Yamaha M2 amp which delivers 240 watts at 8 Ohm and almost 400 Watts at 4 Ohm can´t keep up with the ML-2´s when driving my Acoustats. Even the Denon POA-8000´s monoblocks failed on the load these speakers present.
With the big Krell KMA-200´s ,ML-3 and Rowland 7´s I never experienced any clipping at all, with Thresholds SA/1´s I did at very loud levels.
So to be honest I should have a clean 35 Volts to be on the safe side but I like the sound of the ML-2´s so much that I accept the possible clipping when playing very loud.
I could of course bridge two ML-2´s for 34 Volts but a AC draw of 1.6 kWatts continuously the added space and heat makes me reluctant.
Yes I can get to clipping but normally I don't listen to that level.
And I cannot put a bigger amp because step up transformers will start to saturate. A sub is seemingly a simple option but in practice difficult to integrate and is currently unused.
It would be interesting to measure sanders 10C , unfortunately I can't do so.
There are many ways in which sensitivity can be elevated(Lets say its taken at some peaking spot) or is measured at 4meters and recalculated back comparing to a cone speaker(6db gain for free : ) ). I am a bit suspicious about sanders stated 94db efficiency. However if the panel is a flat directional non-segmented ESL then quite high efficiency is possible at higher frequencies, with a serious dip in low mid-range presumably corrected via DSP.
Buy a 6kVA Variac here: Philips
You can connect two Krell KRS-200 amps sucking 14 amps all of the time
Hello,
I did a dumb thing and sold a pair or 1+1 with a MK121-C interface due to a moderate degree of arching. They still sounded great. Then I bought another pair of 1+1s with MK 131C interface. The panels are in excellent condition but I have learned (here) that these do not run full range. Can the MK131-C interface be made to run full range or do I need to seek a 121-C interface? Are the connections the same? Does anyone have them. Thank you for any help.
Regards
I did a dumb thing and sold a pair or 1+1 with a MK121-C interface due to a moderate degree of arching. They still sounded great. Then I bought another pair of 1+1s with MK 131C interface. The panels are in excellent condition but I have learned (here) that these do not run full range. Can the MK131-C interface be made to run full range or do I need to seek a 121-C interface? Are the connections the same? Does anyone have them. Thank you for any help.
Regards